Students Rioting in London.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Because clearly all institutions will charge the full £9k and accept the conditions and further withdrawal of funding attached, right?

Less of the 'will' and more 'could' is wise right now as neither you nor I have any idea how many will charge £9k and indeed it's quite clear that the policy actively disincentivises doing so.

I was listening to a discussion on the radio on Sunday which said that when universities initally introduced fees, all charged the maximum they were able to.

I don't have any concrete evidence to back this up as I only caught the discussion near its end, but it wouldn't suprise me if the majority of unis charged the maximum.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

This would depend entirely on the degree being done.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6829650.ece



http://www.personneltoday.com/articl...year-high.html

Yes, but I was talking about the benefits to the country, rather than the individual. The question I'm raising is what impact making Higher Education so much more expensive is going to have on the economic prospects of the UK.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Some recent interesting (imho) info on US student debt - Education Bubble

One interesting stat was that, on average, it takes 5.4 years to complete a four year course, and the average student debt is $23k (just under £15k).

Can I just point out though that there's a cultural difference there, in the US it's considered commonplace to save for your children's college education. Note that they say 2/3rds of students take loans. I would speculate that figure is somewhat higher here.

In addition scholarships and financial aid are far more mature programmes in the United States.

http://www.wbur.org/2010/05/25/student-loans-ii

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I was listening to a discussion on the radio on Sunday which said that when universities initally introduced fees, all charged the maximum they were able to.

I don't have any concrete evidence to back this up as I only caught the discussion near its end, but it wouldn't suprise me if the majority of unis charged the maximum.

That didn't have conditions attached, charging over £6k does this time around in a big way so not comparable.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

Yes, but I was talking about the benefits to the country, rather than the individual. The question I'm raising is what impact making Higher Education so much more expensive is going to have on the economic prospects of the UK.

We have less unemployed graduates and more tradesmen and skilled non-graduates hopefully.

I have serious doubts given the lack of evidence of a clear impact on the economy the huge uptick in % of people going to university has had.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I have serious doubts given the lack of evidence of a clear impact on the economy the huge uptick in % of people going to university has had.

Well, I doubt that we are going to see massive economic growth in manufacturing and agriculture in the foreseeable future, so I hope there's a 'plan B'.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

There you go. His brother doesn't look too happy with the situation behind him.

Yes I see, that appears though, it was quite sometime before the incident in which he was dragged across the road.

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

we don't know do we ,because the video evidence that you are relying on doesn't show it ,it is possible that the officer attempted to wheel him away but because Mr wheel chair was (maybe)being so uncooperative the chair tipped on the curb ....or maybe Mr wheelchair has tipped it up himself to put the police in a bad light ...and maybe the second officer seen dragging the first officer away was doing so to protect his coleague because he knew that they where being set up

That is certainly a plausible course of events, but what puzzles me is why the officer had to drag the man. Surely, a better course of action would be to carry him, reducing the risk of any further injury, or wait for assistance from another officer; there were quite a few around. Then there is when he rushed back to man on the floor and had to be dragged away by another officer. His demeanour didn't appear as though his re-approach was going to be very benevolent.

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Masque

I am happy for our police to allowed to control the thugs with whatever means are at their disposal be it water cannon or baton rounds or preferably a mixture of the two.

The mistake has been all along allowing them into areas of power such as Whitehall where they have shown total disrespect to the government buildings, statues and the Cenotaph, a good soaking with a water cannon would have stopped any disruption in its tracks.

Any future demonstrations must not be allowed to enter Whitehall under any circumstances whatsoever and if required to prevent that happening the Army should be mobilised.

No other country would allow such behaviour in their hub of government and up to now our thugs have been handled with kid gloves in comparison to any other country.

As for bringing Chile into this I do not actually care what their police force do as it is not in my Capital City.

And this is the point, what happens when it goes beyond dealing with violent protest, to suppressing all protest? I am not supporting those who have unnecessarily caused disorder, I find their approach to be illogical and counterproductive, but we cannot lump all the protesters in with them. Which the press seems to be trying to achieve and by the looks of it, with some level of success.

I would have thought that you would support protest right at the seat of government. Isn't that what so many were calling for when it was causes which affected them. If our government were to shut themselves away in fortress Westminster, how would they get to hear the people? How would the people express their disquiet of the very people who are supposed to listen?

As far as other countries are concerned, I think you may be generalising a little too much. The USA, for example, have recently seen the "tea party" demonstrators march on their capital. The Republic of Ireland has just witnessed demonstrations on The Dail, they were able to get right up to the gates. Of course conversely, the ones who don't allow protests in front of government, tend to be countries who don't allow that sort of thing at all; I am pretty sure no one wants that.

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

It's Flyboy's plan to suck all the Police in the UK into posting in this thread.

Then there will be none of them out and about to prevent the 'non-violence' during the 'peaceful' protests....

Hey, now there's an idea.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Anyhoo ,if Mr wheel chair is such a helpless character then why is he placed in the firing line , as in nomads piccy , in that one he's in front of a pack of baying animals armed with sticks,bars and god knows what else ,

nice place to put you're crippled brother i don't think

That as maybe the case, but it appears to be a separate incident to the one shown on the video. I can't see how that one would justify the other.

---------- Post added at 16:40 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I did and I can't discern anything in the video.It's not very clear and in fact is very bad as a source of evidence.

Whilst I agree that the start of the incident is not all that clear (perhaps we will see some more footage emerge, like in the Tomlinson case, that will support it either way), the man was certainly dragged across the road. What I am not so sure about, is that standard operating procedure when transporting disabled demonstrators.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:40 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

He was in the middle of a road and it can clearly be seen, that he was being wheeled in the wheelchair at first. How he came out of the wheelchair is obscured.

Hmm, it looked to me as though he was on the pavement on the other side of the road.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Ah but you're missing the obvious! The reason the footage is obscured is that GCHQ, MI5 and everyone else have conspired to cover up a terrible, savage and totally unprovoked attack by police officers on a helpless disabled person who was simply minding his own business....

It sounds as though you are trying say that the police have never beat anyone up before.

[danielf]

Italians make student protests look rather tame.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Tuftus

OK, so let me get this right...

He gets ripped from his wheelchair, yet gets up to stand in front of the Police horses about to charge?

riiiiiiiight, I smell BS (not with your post martyh but) with an utter retard that would stand in front of Police horses, I mean that *is* properly retarded, what kind of an idiot would do such a thing unless they were looking for attention?

That puzzled me as well. Could he be using a metaphor, or I he able to stand but not walk. I would like to see more of this man's actions on the day. Is there any more footage of him?

[vanman]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

That puzzled me as well. Could he be using a metaphor, or I he able to stand but not walk. I would like to see more of this man's actions on the day. Is there any more footage of him?

yes here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOxGD...eature=related
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F50QF...eature=related

So - not a metaphor, then....

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by martyh

exactly and when told to move ..he shook his head and refused to move .

I did some searching for that site just so that we could get his view of what happened and as i suspected it is over emotive drivel but when you remove that i think it is quite clear what the police were trying to do but were impeded by said numpty himself .And just to make things clear he is not a paraplegic(directed at FB) he can walk(albeit not perfectly) and has full use of his arms so is just as capable of inflicting harm on any police officer as anyone else .

At the risk of upsetting some people ,i am prepaired to state that this character is milking his disabled status by using it in a way to bring disrepute on people who would otherwise seek to protect him from harm ...shame on him

That's quite a leap in judgement. You don't even know him. I could point out that it looks like that you are pushing your opinions of him as fact, but you would do something like that. As I understand it, he suffers from CP, which would make it very difficult for him to walk, but probably still able to stand.

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

you're quite right Gazfan ,they do want something for nothing

That's very unfair, in my opinion. From what I have seen there wasn't many who were doing that. Most of those who were, were the ones who wanted a certain politician to honour his pledge. The vast majority were protesting about the fact that they might be paying three times as much for their education than they were promised.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

That's quite a leap in judgement. You don't even know him. I could point out that it looks like that you are pushing your opinions of him as fact, but you would do something like that. As I understand it, he suffers from CP, which would make it very difficult for him to walk, but probably still able to stand.

nope i stand by what i said ,read his account of both the incidents i posted

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

Apart from the odd person claiming that education should be free, I thought the protests were against an increase in fees rather than fees per se?

yes they are protesting against a rise in fees but aren't they also protesting about the lib dems scrapping the pledge to scrap them altogether within 2 parliarments

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by martyh

yes they are protesting against a rise in fees but aren't they also protesting about the lib dems scrapping the pledge to scrap them altogether within 2 parliarments

If that is what they were promised, why shouldn't they feel a little cheated.

---------- Post added at 17:18 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Originally Posted by vanman

yes here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOxGD...eature=related
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F50QF...eature=related

Neither of those video were of him on the day.

One of the most significant points (and quite an obvious one) was the concept of "non-violent resistance."

Originally Posted by Flyboy

If that is what they were promised, why shouldn't they feel a little cheated.

It was Clegg that promised it ,should he win the election ,he didn't so he can't

Neither of those video were of him on the day.

they weren't supposed to be they were to show you that it was not a mataphor

Interview with Jody McIntyre - BBC (apologies if it has been posted before).

In it, he states the police were trying to provoke violence from the protesters......

Did david cameron and the tories promise no rises in tuition fee's did they ever say a thing about abolishing them no they didn't and whether some people like it or not the tories are the biggest party and the lib dems didn't win. This was the thing for the lib dems they were always able to promise just about anything they wanted knowing they would never form a government by majority vote anytime soon and now it comes back to bite them in the backside. That doesn't excuse a bunch of morons going on the rampage tearing up buildings and desecrating national memorials and if some feel they are justified in that behaviour then post your real address and invite them round for their next protest.