Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

So your allegations were just that, untrue and unfounded.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Given that nobody has ever been formally charged with the actions you alleged I'm not surprised either that nobody has ever been prosecuted.

Cheers.

If thats what you want to believe fine.

If you were the DWP you wouldnt let someone be prosecuted for it as the repurcussions to the benefit system would be enormous and would open a claim floodgate. Instead they most likely get internally disiciplined. Also the vast majority of claimants wont have the energy or will power to go after individual's, their priority is their own claim. I dont even know if a doctor has been taken to court.

The fact is reports have been altered post medical, this information can be found by googling but I am not going to do it for you due to the way you have treated this, the uncertianty of it is, is who does it and why this has been done. Even reports that havent been altered, on lima as well there is instances of reports giving factually incorrect information which leads to a false score. This I have personally seen dozens of times.

Now I am curious as to why a claim that the medical system is working wrong negatively against claimants is a subject that you so interested in.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

If thats what you want to believe fine.

Its not what I believe, it's actually what you believe and what you posted. Let me remind you. You said "the result of the appeal is not important". So bang goes your pretence of caring for the ill and vulnerable.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

If you were the DWP you wouldnt let someone be prosecuted for it as the repurcussions to the benefit system would be enormous and would open a claim floodgate.

Again, baseless and factually incorrect. The crown has immunity - Doctors and Atos Orign staff (both of whom you have attempted to malign without a shred of factual legal proof) are not - so why have none of their numbers been prosecuted or found guilty of the allegations you have levelled against them?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Instead they most likely get internally disiciplined.

Again you are hypothesizing over something you have no factual understanding of.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Also the vast majority of claimants wont have the energy or will power to go after individual's, their priority is their own claim. I dont even know if a doctor has been taken to court.

So, it's now the ill peoples fault for not pursuing their claim to have been defrauded by members of a profession you previously alleged to be rife with fraud and practitioners of acts contrary to the Fraud Act.

I'll tell you what Chrysalis, why don't you - given the fact that you maintain that you have seen dozens of instances of this fraud which you allege - take a case for them? Armed with the quantity and quality of the information and evidence you allege, but have yet to prove, you have I'd be surprised if the defence lawyers would even bother turning up such is the incontravertable nature (allegedly) of same.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The fact is reports have been altered post medical, this information can be found by googling but I am not going to do it for you due to the way you have treated this, the uncertianty of it is, is who does it and why this has been done. Even reports that havent been altered, on lima as well there is instances of reports giving factually incorrect information which leads to a false score. This I have personally seen dozens of times.

Yes, of course, I should have realized. Given the fact that you as a sole individual have, allegedly, seen dozens of instances of fraudulent behaviour on the part of doctors completing assessments it's no wonder that Google and the National Archive are literally coming down with examples exactly the same as the dozens you have, allegedly, seen.

Oh, wait.....

There you go again, expecting the world and his sister to alter their perception of reality simply because you "say so" and, per usual, provide no substantive proof or evidence of what, exactly, you have based your "experiences" on. You make yourself look ridiculous with your "bad boys did it and ran away" attempts at defending your fantastical and entirely unfounded allegations (which you are now trying frantically to backtrack from).

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Now I am curious as to why a claim that the medical system is working wrong negatively against claimants is a subject that you so interested in.

Because, unlike yourself, I have a factually based interest in the state affording care and protection to the ill and vulnerable.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Because, unlike yourself, I have a factually based interest in the state affording care and protection to the ill and vulnerable.

Then why have you not posed the same question to other welfare posts that have the same lack of data? you put yourself in a corner here. You picked this post out and you wont say why.

I have seen dozens of inaccurate reports because I have attended appeal hearings. These are documents that I seen in front of me, not something on the internet.

What I am seeing here with you is you have taken offense to the fact someone has challenged the integrity of the system, you have made your point, some people will read your posts and take your view and thats it. But you are taking this further and I presume wont stop either until a moderator steps in or you try to get me to say something like because there is no prosecution it must mean its all false. The world doesnt work like that. So you can claim your victory here and others can make their own mind up. So I wont respond to further posts from you in this thread.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Then why have you not posed the same question to other welfare posts that have the same lack of data? you put yourself in a corner here.

Now you're really clutching at straws. I invited you earlier to view my position throughout this thread and you didn't bother, did you?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

You picked this post out and you wont say why.

I've told you why - I intervened because you lied about there being proof that medical professionals had fraudulently mis represented the health conditions of ill individuals.

You have tried to backtrack ever since and, much as I dislike the system as it is, I cannot sit idly by and watch you malign and slander medical professionals simply because it suits your agenda.

You've been called out, you've been exposed as a fantasist who makes ill informed unsubstantiated allegations about people and, when challenged, someone who cowers in a corner sticking your fingers in your ears and sings "I'm not listening, I'm not listening, I'm not playing anymore, mummy, mummy".

Take for example "I have seen dozens of inaccurate reports because I have attended appeal hearings". Mrs E was an appeal hearing, her appeal outcome is in the public domain suitably anonymised, where are those that you expect us to believe you have have attended?

I've put it to you that you should take a case on behalf of those you allege to have been fraudulently disadvantaged and what we now see is your fantasy world crumbling in the public eye.

That in itself speaks volumes.

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

You've been called out, you've been exposed as a fantasist who makes ill informed unsubstantiated allegations about people and, when challenged, someone who cowers in a corner sticking your fingers in your ears and sings "I'm not listening, I'm not listening, I'm not playing anymore, mummy, mummy".

You really are angry by name and nature aren't you.

I think you are just enjoying this aren't you.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by peanut

You really are angry by name and nature aren't you.

I think you are just enjoying this aren't you.

He talks about facts without proof, that is a bold statement he made, I am not sitting here demanding proof that I am lieing, I accept his opinion.

if i may interject.If there were any truth to these allegations i am pretty sure that the news of the world or daily mail would have gotten hold of it first and would in all likely hood be the subject of a thread on cf .That sort of allegation could lose people their jobs and have repercusions all the way to downing st

[Chrysalis]

why would the NOTW and mail post a story about claimants been unfairly denied benefit? to those papers they ****. Newspapers all have agendas.

The bbc was offered case details, hard proof, and proof of a doctor been reprimanded by atos origin but wouldnt print the story due to it "not been in the public's interest" and that was the bbc never mind someone like the NOTW.

The proproganda has been very effective as people here simply refuse to believe whats going on.

[Gary L]

Anyway sort of bringing it back to compulsory unpaid labour. after seeing the students protest and riots today. I think there's a possibility that the hundreds of thousands that this may affect. if they had a riot it would be a bloody big one?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

why would the NOTW and mail post a story about claimants been unfairly denied benefit? to those papers they ****. Newspapers all have agendas.

The bbc was offered case details, hard proof, and proof of a doctor been reprimanded by atos origin but wouldnt print the story due to it "not been in the public's interest" and that was the bbc never mind someone like the NOTW.

The proproganda has been very effective as people here simply refuse to believe whats going on.

Really?Where did you get that information?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

why would the NOTW and mail post a story about claimants been unfairly denied benefit? to those papers they ****. Newspapers all have agendas.

The bbc was offered case details, hard proof, and proof of a doctor been reprimanded by atos origin but wouldnt print the story due to it "not been in the public's interest" and that was the bbc never mind someone like the NOTW.

The proproganda has been very effective as people here simply refuse to believe whats going on.

are you serious ? any newspaper would jump at the chance to investigate a story like that and if the BBC turned it down then i would suggest it was because there was either no truth to it or no evidence.

[MTJR]

It's fun here ennit?

I can't say I particularly believe one story or another, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I still believe that our culture has changed in the last 15 or so years that allows people to play on certain health issues they might have to dodge the system. I think the teacher who's just been paid £150k compensation shows us just how wrong the thinking is.

Equally, I think there are people out there who probably aren't getting the benefits they are entitled to but not necessarily because they've been cheated out of it, just because they haven't been given the correct information.

Whether this system works, only time will tell but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

John

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Really?Where did you get that information?

I didnt but was working someone else with someone who had it.

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

are you serious ? any newspaper would jump at the chance to investigate a story like that and if the BBC turned it down then i would suggest it was because there was either no truth to it or no evidence.

The BBC and newspapers turn lots of things down they dont like the look off.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The fear of assessments comes from the fact that the assessments are biased, legitimately ill people get results coming back saying they fit for work. This was even happening on the old assessment never mind the new one. In the days of hand written reports doctors used to alter reports with false information after the claimant had signed the old one off. These are the barriers claimants are up against, that non claimants dont realise happens.

Estimations of money gained by government due to (a) people not claiming when they entitled and (b) people been wrongfully kicked of benefit due to rules that are too harsh is greater than money claimed to be lost due to fraud, making the latter a smaller problem.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

why would the NOTW and mail post a story about claimants been unfairly denied benefit? to those papers they ****. Newspapers all have agendas.

The bbc was offered case details, hard proof, and proof of a doctor been reprimanded by atos origin but wouldnt print the story due to it "not been in the public's interest" and that was the bbc never mind someone like the NOTW.

The proproganda has been very effective as people here simply refuse to believe whats going on.

Could I just point out there's a huge difference between your initial assertion (that this was widespread) and your latest (a single instance).

You also appear to be stating that ATOS reprimanded a doctor for doing what you said they wanted (certify people as being fit for work when they weren't), or are you saying they reprimanded him/her for saying that people weren't fit for work? Any links?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The BBC and newspapers turn lots of things down they dont like the look off.

that would usually be because without hard evidence they will get into a lot of trouble,of course there are papers that don't care as much about hard evidence when making claims such as NOTW or the DM so if there was so much as a sniff of truth behind that allegation you made they would be all over it imo