Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

absolute rubbish gary ,claiming benefits is most definitely not a right ,it is a privelidge born of a caring society

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/in-your-...its-your-right

HB is irrelevant in the case of claiming benefits, and the thinking of having to work a 30 hour unpaid week to make up for it.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

This is the most pathetic idea that l have heard from this idiotic government.

The councils are making cutbacks galore, so how do they get the streets cleaned and graffiti cleaned - bingo, get the unemployed to do it, they are not stupid are they. What they should be doing is investing in getting work brought into this country, therefore taking the unemployed off the books.

There are some decent hard working people out there, who do not have a job, is the government going to tar them with the same job, and not only that there basic human right are effected, as it is there right to claim benefit.

What this stupid government have to do is shut the door on people coming in from other countries and taking all the jobs at a cheap price.

The laugh of all is that when you go for a job at the JC, they send you to an agency for the job, and they are making the money, not the worker.

well apart from this post not making any sense at all it just doesn't make any sense
Arthur it is not a basic human right to claim benefits that is the mentality that needs to be stamped out

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

well apart from this post not making any sense at all it just doesn't make any sense
Arthur it is not a basic human right to claim benefits that is the mentality that needs to be stamped out

If that is the case, then don't immigrants have a legal right. or is it just a caring society?

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

absolute rubbish gary ,claiming benefits is most definitely not a right ,it is a privelidge born of a caring society

I think you'll find that claiming benefits is a right in the event that your circumstances - at any given time - meet certain criteria.

That link also gives some valuable insight as to what is and isn't considered "voluntary work".

Interestingly it states.

How voluntary work is defined

In terms of benefits and tax credits, you will be considered as being a volunteer if you:

• do not receive any money for the work you do (this does not include expenses)
• are not legally obliged to volunteer
• do something for a not-for-profit organisation
• do something for someone who is not a family member

So "compulsory" work (ie. undertaken as a result of a legal obligation as Duncan Smith appears to be proposing) is not "voluntary" and should, therefore, attract the proper remuneration.

Originally Posted by Gary L

If that is the case, then don't immigrants have a legal right. or is it just a caring society?

A legal right is totally different to a "basic human right" which you and Arthur seem to think is the case for claiming benefits .We as a society could withdraw the legal right to claim benefits at any time ,it is our wish as a society to have this system as a safety net to prevent people living within our society from starving or falling into poverty

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I think you'll find that claiming benefits is a right in the event that your circumstances - at any given time - meet certain criteria.

and as i pointed out it is a legal right not a basic human right which would appear to be the way some people percieve the benefit system

So "compulsory" work (ie. undertaken as a result of a legal obligation as Duncan Smith appears to be proposing) is not "voluntary" and should, therefore, attract the proper remuneration.

and as i also pointed out earlier JSB/UB+HB +other free stuff = proper remuneration imo

[Mr Angry]

Martyh

You seem to be suffering selective amnesia. You didn't state it was a legal right what you stated was;

Originally Posted by martyh

absolute rubbish gary ,claiming benefits is most definitely not a right ,it is a privelidge born of a caring society

Which is quite specific in its inaccuracy.

Originally Posted by martyh

We as a society could withdraw the legal right to claim benefits at any time ,it is our wish as a society to have this system as a safety net to prevent people living within our society from starving or falling into poverty

With all due respect, if you genuinely believe that rubbish you need help.

Here are a few "real world" UK figures for you to get your head around.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I will put it this way, over my working life, l have been unemployed three times.
I was out of work for TWO YEARS, then 12 months and then 6 months.

In that time, l did not get any help whatsoever from the JC, l had to look for work, and there wasn't anything out there, that we pay a decent wage. People keep saying go a for a low paid job, how can you the Government puts guidlines down to claim and 'support' for new jobs. And this doesn't work. Some jobs take you on, just to take you off the register.

What really infuriates me is there is not any decent wage paying jobs out there to get and support your family, ok you have free treatment etc, but do you know how embarrasing that is for the people who want work but cannot get it, Its an insult for the government to say, they have to clean streets etc, all this is to save money from local councils, it like doing community service.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

A legal right is totally different to a "basic human right"

So it's a human right and not a legal right to claim benefits in your own country?

why do they put something like "this is what the law says you need to legally live on" ?

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

and as i pointed out it is a legal right not a basic human right which would appear to be the way some people percieve the benefit system

It was actually the other way around. but nevermind.

Originally Posted by Gary L

So it's a human right and not a legal right to claim benefits in your own country?

why do they put something like "this is what the law says you need to legally live on" ?

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------



It was actually the other way around. but nevermind.

As MR A pointed out it is a legal right providing certain criteria are met

there has to be a minimum ammount decided upon ,the amount the gov has decided is the minimum to live on is always open to controversy but it is the legal minimum the welfare system has to pay a claimant when he/she exercises their legal right to claim benefits so they can maintain their basic human right of living above the poverty line

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

but it is the legal minimum the welfare system has to pay a claimant when he/she exercises their legal right to claim benefits so they can maintain their basic human right of living above the poverty line

LOL ok.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Martyh

You seem to be suffering selective amnesia. You didn't state it was a legal right what you stated was;
.

i was responding to arthur and gary's claim that it was a basic human right which it most definately is not

With all due respect, if you genuinely believe that rubbish you need help.

simply pointing out that if the majority of UK people wished to not have a welfare system then we wouldn't have to have one .It's not there because the government or the EHCR say we have to have it it's there because we say we want it

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

i was responding to arthur and gary's claim that it was a basic human right which it most definately is not

I said it was a legal right. to which you said it's not, it's a human right. to which according to what you're saying now. it's not that.

Yours confused,
Gary.

Might as well step into the firing line i think this is badly thought out and is being done to pander to the ever growing number of people that believe our benefit system is completely out of control. One of the first things for some to understand is that most people that are unemployed would actually welcome the oppurtunity to do something like this as one of the biggest problems with getting a job after a period of unemployment is that you are seen to have been idle and doing nothing and the adjustment back to work could or will be too hard for a company to take a chance. I myself have encountered this many times before i finally had to admit the extent of my condition and cease looking for work.

As i have said before we are constantly told in this country that we have skills shortages that mean we have to take people in from other countries all the time while we have at least 1.4 million people that could be trained to fill those skills shortages. Right now this is being presented as applying to the long term unemployed but make no mistake this government is coming after many people who are sick and unable to do work Mr.Angry is quite correct in that and read a little more on some of the other things mr duncan smith has said and it becomes quite clear.

As usual in this country we have a problem no one denies that but instead of taking a long term view of it setting up proper resources that will enable us to fill skills we need we will take the short term headline grabbing approach. Label whole groups of people as something they are not and allow the media to do the rest to get the majority going along with what is an unfair and unjust scheme.

There are those who are lazy, workshy and good for nothing, again no one denies that but they are not as large a group as some would like us all to believe and in fact i will go so far as to say they are a tiny minority. I think this is an issue where actually spending money and setting up the resources to allow us to train the unemployed to fill our skills gaps is a far better approach then pandering to the "everyone on benefit is a workshy scrounger" brigade who so fortunately have a large media section dedicated to promoting that belief and stirring up hatred towards people they claim fall into that category.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

There are some decent hard working people out there, who do not have a job, is the government going to tar them with the same job, and not only that there basic human right are effected, as it is there right to claim benefit.

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

If they were getting paid they'd get an extra £100 on top of their benefits. all the extras are irrelevant. they're paid for from taxes, which I and many others might say it's ok for me to pay. so who are they to say that I say otherwise?

as Arthur says. like it or not, claiming benefit is a right. it may have certain conditions added to it all the time (including this one) where it is believed that these are actually legal, and not just what they say?

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

I said it was a legal right. to which you said it's not, it's a human right. to which according to what you're saying now. it's not that.

Yours confused,
Gary.

you said neither you implied agreement with arthurs post that it was a basic human right which i disagreed and said it was most definately not ,it may be a legal right ,read the posts not what you wish them to say

We can stop this pointless argument now. Its a legal right. Move on.