The Traditional Pub disappearing.

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by Gary L

It is shame to see all the pubs gradually closing. eventually we'll have none left at all and part of the British tradition will be lost.

Its just occurred to me Gary why so many pubs have been closing down....its all the fault of the "Muslims", if they were to get Brahms and Liszt a few nights a week then trade would be booming.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Paul M

I really annoys me that people assume that everyone who buys alcohol in a supermarket is some sort of rampaging drunk who should be taxed to hell.

Not taxed to hell. I enjoy picking up a few crates of lager and a bottle or so of spirits as much as the next man. Unless the next man is Gazza of course

That said there is a world of difference between sensibly priced alcohol and the utter gutrot that gets sold at ridiculous prices to the people who solely want to get out their minds on drink.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Has a ghost that throws things across the bar (allegedly) and locks cats in cupboards.

Sounds like just another Friday night in Glasgow.

There is also the fact that whilst "traditional" pubs may be disappearing, other drinking establishments are opening.

For instance, in Leeds city centre in the late 80s, there were about eight traditional pubs and a couple of wine bars - now there are over fifty places you can go for a drink (bars, wine bars, cocktail bars, places like Revolution and Tiger Tiger - and I'm not including all the restaurants that have opened over the same period).

In Headingley, there used to be six pubs; those pubs are still open, and another five or six bars have opened.

[Pog66]

Originally Posted by Hugh

In Headingley, there used to be six pubs; those pubs are still open, and another five or six bars have opened.

Headingley does have the advantage of university campuses on either side plus Rugby & cricket to keep the punters rolling on. Nothing like students desperate to get out of their dungy accom to keep the money rolling on (from first hand experience of my daughter being there at the moment )

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Paul M

I really annoys me that people assume that everyone who buys alcohol in a supermarket is some sort of rampaging drunk who should be taxed to hell.

Two things killed pubs - the insanely high prices they charge, and the smoking ban. People just find its too expensive and too much hassle these days.

Part of the reason the prices are considered insanely high is the loss leading prices the supermarkets charge.

I would hope no-one assumes people who buy alcohol in supermarket are by default rampaging drunks however there is no justification at all for the supermarkets offering alcohol, usually of a moderate-high ABV, in large quantities at loss making prices.

There's a lot of difference between getting a 4 pack or some wine or a bottle of something stronger in and getting trays of cheap slightly flavoured diluted ethanol in to get smashed. A minimum price per unit of alcohol can be arranged to ensure minimal impact on the first while disincentivising the second.

Alcohol is a poison that kills people and costs society immensely in many ways. I'm not a fan of taxation in any shape or form but alcohol is something that should be punitively taxed to ensure a minimum price per unit. The current taxation scheme doesn't cut it.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Part of the reason the prices are considered insanely high is the loss leading prices the supermarkets charge.

I would hope no-one assumes people who buy alcohol in supermarket are by default rampaging drunks however there is no justification at all for the supermarkets offering alcohol, usually of a moderate-high ABV, in large quantities at loss making prices.

There's a lot of difference between getting a 4 pack or some wine or a bottle of something stronger in and getting trays of cheap slightly flavoured diluted ethanol in to get smashed. A minimum price per unit of alcohol can be arranged to ensure minimal impact on the first while disincentivising the second.

Alcohol is a poison that kills people and costs society immensely in many ways. I'm not a fan of taxation in any shape or form but alcohol is something that should be punitively taxed to ensure a minimum price per unit. The current taxation scheme doesn't cut it.

Odd thing is, the countries charging the most for alcohol also have the highest rates of alcoholism

I think that's usually indicative of an attempt to solve the problem, not the probable cause.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Part of the reason the prices are considered insanely high is the loss leading prices the supermarkets charge.

I would hope no-one assumes people who buy alcohol in supermarket are by default rampaging drunks however there is no justification at all for the supermarkets offering alcohol, usually of a moderate-high ABV, in large quantities at loss making prices.

There's a lot of difference between getting a 4 pack or some wine or a bottle of something stronger in and getting trays of cheap slightly flavoured diluted ethanol in to get smashed. A minimum price per unit of alcohol can be arranged to ensure minimal impact on the first while disincentivising the second.

Alcohol is a poison that kills people and costs society immensely in many ways. I'm not a fan of taxation in any shape or form but alcohol is something that should be punitively taxed to ensure a minimum price per unit. The current taxation scheme doesn't cut it.

Agreed. The problems the pubs have with the supermarkets are the same that a lot of other shops have with the supermarkets. That problem is that the supermarkets know that we are going to need to buy food. As such, they have a guaranteed money maker. The likes of Tesco and Sainsburys also have enough buying power that to a large extent, they can dictate prices that their suppliers charge. Even to the point where those suppliers take a *loss* on each item sold.

These two combine to mean that they can drop prices on other products (such as Alcohol) to below the point where it is profitable for any competitor. This is extremely bad for the economy (unless you seriously think we should all end up working for supermarkets).

I like a drink. I even occassionally buy Alcohol from my local Sainsburys. Usually if I am on the way to a friend's for a barbecue or other party. However, I do have concerns about the cheap availability of Alcohol in supermarkets. Why?

Two reasons. First, supermarkets often aren't as thorough in their checking of underage drinkers (at least around my area).

Second, if you drink too much in a pub and are obviously too drunk, a lot of publicans will ask you to leave. I have seen this happen many times in my various visits to pubs. If you buy a crate of some random strong lager at supermarket, down every single can and pass out in a puddle of your own vomit, no one is going to stop you. There is also the problem of what the long term effects on your body of drinking that amount are.

Originally Posted by Stuart

Agreed. The problems the pubs have with the supermarkets are the same that a lot of other shops have with the supermarkets. That problem is that the supermarkets know that we are going to need to buy food. As such, they have a guaranteed money maker. The likes of Tesco and Sainsburys also have enough buying power that to a large extent, they can dictate prices that their suppliers charge. Even to the point where those suppliers take a *loss* on each item sold.

These two combine to mean that they can drop prices on other products (such as Alcohol) to below the point where it is profitable for any competitor. This is extremely bad for the economy (unless you seriously think we should all end up working for supermarkets).

I like a drink. I even occassionally buy Alcohol from my local Sainsburys. Usually if I am on the way to a friend's for a barbecue or other party. However, I do have concerns about the cheap availability of Alcohol in supermarkets. Why?

Two reasons. First, supermarkets often aren't as thorough in their checking of underage drinkers (at least around my area).

Second, if you drink too much in a pub and are obviously too drunk, a lot of publicans will ask you to leave. I have seen this happen many times in my various visits to pubs. If you buy a crate of some random strong lager at supermarket, down every single can and pass out in a puddle of your own vomit, no one is going to stop you. There is also the problem of what the long term effects on your body of drinking that amount are.

Good points Stuart ,to pick up on your second point ,do you think it feasible to force supermarkets or indeed other chains such as Booze Busters ect to limit the amount of alcohol sold to one person as happens with paracetamol for example

[Angua]

Originally Posted by martyh

Good points Stuart ,to pick up on your second point ,do you think it feasible to force supermarkets or indeed other chains such as Booze Busters ect to limit the amount of alcohol sold to one person as happens with paracetamol for example

The paracetamol system is as effective as a chocolate stair gate. In as much as the purchase of booze can be spread amongst many suppliers. So no help there and given that registered alcoholics get money towards drink, increasing the cost will just increase the amount of benefit they will need.

Originally Posted by Angua

The paracetamol system is as effective as a chocolate stair gate. In as much as the purchase of booze can be spread amongst many suppliers. So no help there and given that registered alcoholics get money towards drink, increasing the cost will just increase the amount of benefit they will need.

The thing with the Paracetamol issue is that it takes longer to get the means to kill yourself and it costs more because of the packaging(16 tabs,foil and blister packaging plus cardboard box compared to 100 tabs in brown bottle the cost went up 3 fold).

So doing the same for alcohol won't stop the problems straight out, just make it harder and take longer..

At the time I was annoyed because I was penalised even though I was a responsible user of the product.If the same thing happens with alcohol I will be just as incensed because I am a responsible drinker.

What we need is for parents,educators and society to step up and do the right thing.To really smack down hard on those that sell to the underage,those that buy for the underage and to parents who don't parent their teenagers for underage drinking and are lousy examples to their children about binge drinking and above all don't check where their children are when out of sight.

Originally Posted by Angua

The paracetamol system is as effective as a chocolate stair gate. In as much as the purchase of booze can be spread amongst many suppliers. So no help there and given that registered alcoholics get money towards drink, increasing the cost will just increase the amount of benefit they will need.

Restricting paracetamol doesn't prevent someone from committing suicide if that's what they really want to do, but then it was never really intended to do that.

It was supposed to put large bottles of the stuff out of the reach of angsty emo teenagers who were liable to down a handful without truly weighing up the chances of it really, actually killing them.

[Kymmy]

Especially when the restriction is above the 30 tablets threshold which will cause permenant liver damage (and that's for a healthy person)..

I don't think though you can compare long term abuse with short term overdoses though..

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by gazfan

Can you explain a bit more, please.

Round my way the Weatherspoon pubs serve reasonably priced food, reasonably priced drinks & do not have loud music, fruit machines, etc.

It is, therefore, possible to go with a group of friends, have a decent conversation & not spend too much money.

- what do you consider to be missing from that when compared to a 'traditional' pub?

In one word 'Atmosphere'

Wetherspoons lacks it, also my local Wetherspoons as others I have visited have the worst service of any pub I have visited. A few times I have walked in,waited for 5 mins and then walked out and gone to my local. The ratio of staff serving to customer is high, but the efficiency/time serving is very poor.

At least I never wait long in my local, because if there is a queue I have the owners blessing to go behind the bar and serve myself. I do this when they are busy, leaving the money behind the bar for the drink/drinks.

ps. I never drink at home, and to be honest I'm not a big boozer at the pub. Sometimes when I'm away early Saturday morning on my motorbike, I go on a Friday night and drink coke or a few shandy just to have a chat with my mates.