Young lad dies, after refusing blood

Originally Posted by nomadking

The inference was, that because it was claimed that there was no biblical basis for the doctrine, it was therefore a cult and not a religion.

On the contrary - I said, quite specifically, that there is a verse in the Bible that the Watchtower Society uses in order to justify the instruction to their members not to accept blood transfusions.

My inference was that the way they concoct and promulgate their doctrine is what makes them a cult.

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

Originally Posted by zing

For one JWs are not classed as a cult at all so on this one Chris you get the well deserved definition of wrong lol

I don't think there is a worldwide body whose job it is to class religions as 'mainstream', 'cult' or 'sect' - so I think you're sticking your neck out a bit to claim the Watchtower Society is 'not classed as a cult'.

Whether it is or not does depend on your point of view. I wouldn't expect a member, or even many ex-members, to accept the view that it is a cult.

The word 'cult' has a traditional application in describing any religious group but more particularly is describes one that deviates from the norm. In the first century AD the early church was considered to be a Jewish cult or sect, because it was seen as having deviated from Judaism.

The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult by the common, modern definition you can read at answers.com:

1a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

The Society claims to be Christian, which invites the rest of Christianity to either agree or disagree with the claim. The fact that the Society denies the deity of Christ means that no other Christian denomination can agree that the Society is itself Christian; whatever else divides the Christian denominations, there is a creed that binds them together and the nature of God is a critical part of that creed. On this basis, the Society claims to be part of the Church; the rest of the Church cries 'false'.

In fact, the Society goes further - it claims not to be part of the Church; it claims that it is the church. The Society is led by a group of 'Elders' that claim exclusive knowledge and ability to interpret the Bible. They have managed to convince upwards of 12 million people worldwide of this, to the extent that some of them are prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion. I think the Society therefore meets any reasonable definitions of 'authoritarian' and 'charismatic'.

As I said at the outset, ultimately it depends on your point of view. But from my point of view, I'm not wrong.

Originally Posted by Chris

On the contrary - I said, quite specifically, that there is a verse in the Bible that the Watchtower Society uses in order to justify the instruction to their members not to accept blood transfusions.

My inference was that the way they concoct and promulgate their doctrine is what makes them a cult.

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------



I don't think there is a worldwide body whose job it is to class religions as 'mainstream', 'cult' or 'sect' - so I think you're sticking your neck out a bit to claim the Watchtower Society is 'not classed as a cult'.

Whether it is or not does depend on your point of view. I wouldn't expect a member, or even many ex-members, to accept the view that it is a cult.

The word 'cult' has a traditional application in describing any religious group but more particularly is describes one that deviates from the norm. In the first century AD the early church was considered to be a Jewish cult or sect, because it was seen as having deviated from Judaism.

The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult by the common, modern definition you can read at answers.com:



The Society claims to be Christian, which invites the rest of Christianity to either agree or disagree with the claim. The fact that the Society denies the deity of Christ means that no other Christian denomination can agree that the Society is itself Christian; whatever else divides the Christian denominations, there is a creed that binds them together and the nature of God is a critical part of that creed. On this basis, the Society claims to be part of the Church; the rest of the Church cries 'false'.

In fact, the Society goes further - it claims not to be part of the Church; it claims that it is the church. The Society is led by a group of 'Elders' that claim exclusive knowledge and ability to interpret the Bible. They have managed to convince upwards of 12 million people worldwide of this, to the extent that some of them are prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion. I think the Society therefore meets any reasonable definitions of 'authoritarian' and 'charismatic'.

As I said at the outset, ultimately it depends on your point of view. But from my point of view, I'm not wrong.

you are talking a whole pile of ignorant ( as in uneducated on the subject not an insult) poop there dude

A The bible clearly states there is only one true God so every single faith based on the bible thinks its the one true church

B Christ is gods first born JWs can only pray to God through Christ, Just because JWs do not believe in the trinity does not lesson the respect for Jesus as the most important man ever to have lived.Muslims believe in the same |God and do not believe in a divine Christ either are they a cult to?
In fact the trinity is totally flawed the bible continually refers to Christ as a separate entity

How I see flaws in the trinity
1 At the age of 30 Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist at this point a dove flew down and he was anointed with holy spirit. He then went into the worlderness for 40 days to pray because it was a lot to deal with. So for the trinity to be correct Jesus was in the water a dove flew down and gave him himself then he went off and talked to himself about it for 40 days

2 On the cross/stake Jesus said before dying "forgive them Father they know not what they do" so again for the trinity it would be " forgive them me they know not what to do"
The father is God ,The son is Christ his first angel and the Holy spirit is
Gods presence on earth

C The society it hardly charismatic it is uniformly treated with hatred and prejudice as you have clearly shown here

Catholicism was born out of Roman greed and the doctrine was *******ised to suit and rule the world violently and in fear. Remember the Romans did put Christ to death how come they get to make up the largest Christian faith world wide?

And any CofE based Church should know they were only developed so a king could divorce his first wife

JWs spend a lot of time researching the bible and historical fact to try their best to come up with what they beleive is the truth in the bible and in my search for the truth were the only faith I asked for information that I felt trully and deeply believed all of it and lived their lives by it whole heartedly

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Another thing you may not know about JWs

They refuse to go to war they also refuse to any allegiance to flag or country

They were also persecuted by the Nazis and to save themselves all they needed to do was swear allegence to the flag but they refused

They are encouraged to work and contribute to society and live by the laws of the land even if they are unjust

They do not smoke they should not drink to excess they are taught to treat their bodies with respect

Obviously some will go against these teaching we are afterall all imperfect

[Xaccers]

They also will use people's lack of understanding of thermaldynamics to try and "prove" that a canopy of water, with a volume enough to flood much of the planet (the rest of the water coming form underground), could be held up by the thermosphere, after all, "balloons stay up with heat don't they?" When asked "what would stop the water boiling off into space?" they were stumped.
Similarly they roll out the old "If you put the head of a rake and the pole in a tumble dryer, not in a billion years would the head fit on the pole, so the building blocks of life couldn't come together as the scientists claim" They didn't like it when I asked "What if you put a magnet on the end of the pole to make it like an ion in a chemical reaction?"

[Stuart]

Can we get back on topic?

[Lord Nikon]

insofar as we are deconstructing the religion / cult that is Jehovas Witness to ascertain motives and to find contradictory information within biblical scriptures to provide validity for a religious acceptance of blood transfusions I thought we were on topic?

[Stuart]

I disagree.

Originally Posted by zing

you are talking a whole pile of ignorant ( as in uneducated on the subject not an insult) poop there dude <major snippage>

I'm sure you're not surprised to hear that I disagree with the Watchtower Society's teaching regarding the nature of God. You may however be surprised to learn that I have actually done some reading around the subject, and have discussed the issues with members of the society in the past - such that nothing in your above post was news to me. I know the JW position on the Trinity, and I believe it to be profoundly wrong.

[PeteLockwood]

it is funny how utterly STUPID hardcore religous nuts are, i remember about 2 years ago a JW had twins refused blood and died, i mean how SELFISH is that ?

[rogerdraig]

about as selfish as some one with a new baby on the way or just here going to war !

though i would say neither intend to die but are willing to risk their lives and their families loss of them for what they believe in !

[papa smurf]

i'm getting the feeling that freedom to practice religious beliefs ,is only OK if your religion is on the approved list .

Originally Posted by PeteL

it is funny how utterly STUPID hardcore religous nuts are, i remember about 2 years ago a JW had twins refused blood and died, i mean how SELFISH is that ?

What about abortion the willing execution of potential humans and how about the fact its perfectly acceptable in society for women to do it for no other reason other than they do not want a child. Now thats what I call selfish but in society perfectly acceptable

Stange how the right to choose whether to refuse treatment when you are sick isnt acceptable though eh??

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

i'm getting the feeling that freedom to practice religious beliefs ,is only OK if your religion is on the approved list .

yep lol

[speedfreak]

Originally Posted by zing

Stange how the right to choose whether to refuse treatment when you are sick isnt acceptable though eh??

I dont think its unacceptable I just think its crazy and think its selfish but Im bound to as I dont have the same beliefs though who are we to judge

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I always remember reading an article about two years ago, when a JW couple went into hospital, and the wife was having a baby, and whilst she was delivering, and it got into trouble, and was losing blood, they blatantly refused blood, and she died, the baby survived, and the husband was heard to say, it was something that god wanted, this is what makes me mad, ok, l am religious, but l would never put my wife and family in danger, through a church cult such as this.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I always remember reading an article about two years ago, when a JW couple went into hospital, and the wife was having a baby, and whilst she was delivering, and it got into trouble, and was losing blood, they blatantly refused blood, and she died, the baby survived, and the husband was heard to say, it was something that god wanted, this is what makes me mad, ok, l am religious, but l would never put my wife and family in danger, through a church cult such as this.

so you always stick to speed limits when your family is in the car?