The 2010 General Election Thread: Week 4

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

We need to regain our Empire. Then we can introduce a common currency. THE POUND!!! Whahaha! UK! UK! UK! UK! UK!

Are you handing out the silly comment about nationalism because you don't actually have any argument or are we going to see some reasoned comments on why the view I suggested, that Europe is an expensive, undemocratic, self-serving bureaucracy that throws regulations born out of states whose economies built completely differently to the UK's at us is wrong?

Is Europe another of those issues like immigration where if you say something that's not the 'liberal' / politically correct way you are accused of being a racist / nationalist?

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Are you handing out the silly comment about nationalism because you don't actually have any argument or are we going to see some reasoned comments on why the view I suggested, that Europe is an expensive, undemocratic, self-serving bureaucracy that throws regulations born out of states whose economies built completely differently to the UK's at us is wrong?

Is Europe another of those issues like immigration where if you say something that's not the 'liberal' / politically correct way you are accused of being a racist / nationalist?

Just because I felt like it and because I already addressed the story about Nick Clegg calling people who were Euro-Skeptic nasty and insular. I don't see the need to contribute to an argument started by yet another fake story from the Tory Press/MEP.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

Just because I felt like it and because I already addressed the story about Nick Clegg calling people who were Euro-Skeptic nasty and insular. I don't see the need to contribute to an argument started by yet another fake story from the Tory Press/MEP.

That'll be a 'no' then.

EDIT: Stupid comments like that to be honest make you no better than the 'fake story' from the Tory Press. Kinda insulting to a lot of people, for example the majority of the British who would have voted against further European integration if we'd gotten a vote, that particular comment.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

That'll be a 'no' then.

EDIT: Stupid comments like that to be honest make you no better than the 'fake story' from the Tory Press.

The humour bypass was successful then?

No disrespect Ig, but it seems to me you're taking things a little too seriously tonight.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by danielf

The humour bypass was successful then?

No disrespect Ig, but it seems to me you're taking things a little too seriously tonight.

I'm provoking discussion, and given the length of time Damien has been typing his reply I appear to have succeeded

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

That'll be a 'no' then.

EDIT: Stupid comments like that to be honest make you no better than the 'fake story' from the Tory Press.

Thankfully good journalism is not the standard that is expected of me when I comment on a post, unfortunately it appears it is no longer expected of the journalists either.

My initial post was based on finding out the true context of the quote and posting it. I didn't care about the Europe issue, I wasn't following that trend of conversation. I cared on finding out if Nick Clegg really called people nasty and insular because they are Euro-sceptic which struck me as rather aggressive, sweeping and wrong. Then sure enough it turned out he didn't say that. I moved on. The Empire comment was a flippent remark aimed at no-one.

[Ignitionnet]

Bah, ok, fair enough.

Normal service resumed on that note.

So, Gordon Brown's interview this evening, what a see you next Tuesday.

I'll reply to your post anyway now.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'm provoking discussion, and given the length of time Damien has been typing his reply I appear to have succeeded

It seems to me his comment was meant to be humorous. There's no reason he should feel compelled to engage in a somewhat hyperbolic discussion on the pros and cons of Europe.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Given previous and indeed current experience is this surprising?

If we were not so insular we'd be getting tapped for potentially 20bn Euros to bail out Greece.

Sorry but I don't think we're insular, I do however think we've every right to be distressed at how power has been devolved away from our own elected government to one that makes a mockery of democracy in Brussels. If we were not so 'insular' we'd I speculate a similar level of control over our own affairs directly to US states. As it is we're merely slightly better off, though this is being worked on.

We are not France or Germany or the Netherlands, we are British. We have a totally different economy to the rest of Europe which is not compatible with the same management as those states and a totally different people.

If desiring sovereignty, self-determination and individualism rather than being just another one of the United States of Europe having pointless bureaucratic piece of excremental legalese covered paper after pointless bureaucratic piece of excremental legalese covered paper flowing from Brussels to keep the overpaid, expensive, grossly inefficient, self-interested and big state obsessed bureaucrats there in jobs makes me insular then sign me up.

I don't completely disagree with this. It's quite clear that it is better that we maintain control on our currency and our economy. Isn't part of the problem with the Euro that states actually continue to have quite a bit of control and thus make a single currency difficult to maintain as it is subject to a lot of differing factors.

Either way. I don't support joining the Euro.

I do support some of the things the EU does bring though. I think the freedom of movement across Europe is good, the freedom to work where you want is good, increased cooperation between law enforcements is good. I think where we can we should be closer with the EU, there are a lot of benefits. I suspect a few of our members who work here but are of a different EU nationality will agree with that?

The EU suffers from being bureaucratic, large and inefficient but that is an argument to reform the way it works rather than the benefits it brings?

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I read that The Guardian is telling people to go for CLEGG.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I read that The Guardian is telling people to go for CLEGG.

I thought they would go Labour. Oh well. I liked their article explaining the choice:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...oment-has-come

I agree with some of that. My ideal is a Tory Minority government who concede to the Liberal Democrats on matters of voting reform, civil liberties, and science in return for a partnership.

[punky]

I thought a newspaper wasn't supposed to tell its readers to go for anyone? I thought The Grauniad criticises The Sun for telling people to vote Tory?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I read that The Guardian is telling people to go for CLEGG.

They meant labour but in true grauniad tradition they got the spelling wrong

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

The EU suffers from being bureaucratic, large and inefficient but that is an argument to reform the way it works rather than the benefits it brings?

Bureaucracies serve themselves, and so much of the EU is relatively socialist and 'big government' relative to the UK. I don't really see how the scenario you describe could happen leaving only one solution. Small and strongly socialist nations get to wield disproportionate power in the EU through bonding with other smaller and like-minded nations while outside of it they wield none. I don't want to see the UK fall further into socialism. It's also my conviction that the EU are authoritarian in their own right, note their total disdain for referendum decisions within nations and the campaigns to either force 'yes' votes with Euro heavyweights wading in in the case of Ireland or evading referenda entirely as in the case of the UK, with Lady Ashton well rewarded for her efforts in subjugating opposition with her new position.

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:57 ----------

Originally Posted by punky

I thought a newspaper wasn't supposed to tell its readers to go for anyone? I thought The Grauniad criticises The Sun for telling people to vote Tory?

Heh you're kidding right?

It was very obvious The Guardian were going to go that way, as obvious as the Mail going to Cameron.

The major newspapers all have a very clear agenda and have all announced their support. So long as they give decent explanations why IMHO that's all good.