Mansfield teacher arrested over All Saints pupil assault

[alferret]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Premeditation can be as short as three seconds. He dragged the boy into another classroom and shouted, "die, die, die," whilst beating him around the head with a three kilogram weight. That says to me that he wanted him to die and that he had time to consider the act, as a reasonable amount of time had passed for him to think about killing the child. The man was charged with attempted murder, so clearly the police and the CPS believed there was sufficient evidence to support such a charge.

Whilst beating him around the head, he hit him a maximum of 3 times since when is that a beating?
Dont write for the daily mail do you, over exageration is such a daily rag trait.

---------- Post added at 15:21 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Flyboy

There is and have never been a place for physical punishment of a child in a school. Your rather flippant, although poignant, allusion to sexual predilection for such things, was all too common in some teachers, others just took pleasure in inflicting pain and having total control over someone.

Yes there is a place for for punishment in schools, if it wernt for the fact that we are now controlled by do-gooders who have no idea about anything than the blinkered live's they lead the country wouldnt be over run by insolent oiks who know that all they have to do is cry to the old bill, make up stories and get people arrested. Why because they can and they know what they need to do to get "the job done".

As for me being flippant, so what LOL I think I am serious about important matters I just dont get so bloody anal about it do I? Unlike

As for getting back on the subject of Mr Harvey, all you know is what you haave read in the papers and seen on TV, bit like chinese whispers where as I have a little bit more info than most of the rubbish printed in the papers.

[speedfreak]

Too late to bring back punishment in schools. These days any punishment would likely result in the teacher being shot or stabbed outside the school gates.

Once my son is old enough to go to school Id be furious if any teacher laid a finger on him, its down to the parents to discipline a child IMO More should be done to target the parents of unruly kids. Theres no way Im having my son grow up to be a scrote and if I found out he was being a cocky trouble maker at school Id sort him out without violence, I dont want any teacher to "deal" with my son in that way.

When I was younger if I was playing up Id have things taken away from me, that soon sorted me out

i would have no problem with corporal punishment being bought back,and i would have no problem with teachers administering it to my son ,there is far to much of "no-one touches my son/daughter but me " that is where it all started going wrong imo because of course there are to many parents who will not discipline their little darlings and will not allow the school to do it either .

School isn't just about education in the 3r's it's meant to teach discipline and respect for other people .I was caned and slippered at school and despite warnings from the likes of flyboy and his ilk i have not turned into a raving homocidal madman and nor have any of my old school mates ,however it would appear that some of those who weren't disciplined in this fashion have turned into disrespectfull good for nothing louts so somewhere i think there is a message in all that

[QUOTE=alferret;35011224]Whilst beating him around the head, he hit him a maximum of 3 times since when is that a beating?
Dont write for the daily mail do you, over exageration is such a daily rag trait.[COLOR=Silver]

You don't consider an ADULT hitting a CHILD with a 6 pound weight a beating
however many times he did it?

Would you be ok if it was your CHILD having an ADULT beating them with a 6 pound weight while shouting DIE! DIE! DIE!

If you were walking down the street and saw an ADULT beating a CHILD what
would you do? would you try to stop them or think the CHILD deserved it?

[alferret]

Originally Posted by dgardner

You don't consider an ADULT hitting a CHILD with a 6 pound weight a beating however many times he did it?

Would you be ok if it was your CHILD having an ADULT beating them with a 6 pound weight while shouting DIE! DIE! DIE!

If you were walking down the street and saw an ADULT beating a CHILD what would you do? would you try to stop them or think the CHILD deserved it?

Hey I have an opinion so you need to chill a little, smoke some 'erb & kick back.

The situation is what it is and at no point did I say that what he did was ok or imply. Putting words in capitals is supposed to signify what exactly, that you need to shout to get your point across? Hmmmmmm
As for asking me if it were my child, well it wasnt, that situation hasnt arose because my kids respect everybody including teachers. They were brought up that way because they have parents that care.

What would I do if I were walking down the street and saw that happen? I dont know but if it ever happens I'll be sure to PM you full details of the incident.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by dgardner

You don't consider an ADULT hitting a CHILD with a 6 pound weight a beating
however many times he did it?

Would you be ok if it was your CHILD having an ADULT beating them with a 6 pound weight while shouting DIE! DIE! DIE!

If you were walking down the street and saw an ADULT beating a CHILD what
would you do? would you try to stop them or think the CHILD deserved it?

Why is his age relevant? He was 14, not exactly a vulnerable little boy is he? And what about the other 9 times he'd been in trouble for being disruptive in class since starting secondary school?

I'm not condoning the attack but everyone has their limit and this person overstepped another person's limit, so he snapped.

Originally Posted by nffc

I'm not condoning the attack but everyone has their limit and this person overstepped another person's limit, so he snapped.

indeed ,and the child learnt a valuable life lesson that day ,winding people up to the point of breaking can have serious consequenses

I am a decent parent i think and we do administer discipline in our house and i am also painfully aware that once they are out and about with certain friends all i can do is hope they are strong enough in their own right to resist what others do. Saying that all disruptive children have bad parents is over simplyfying it a little but corporal punishment in schools where they might go a little off the rails would be better then waiting for a letter that may take a few days to arrive and punishing for something you didn't witness or know about.

If we do not trust teachers to administer corporal punishement correctly then why bother having them i mean if they are no good at discipline then whats to say they are any good at teaching full stop. This culture of "i do this and that" has to stop and we have to start trusting others in positions of authority to do the right thing at the time it is needed rather then hope it will be done by parents later on. Most kids i know that had corporal punishment in school havn't turned out that bad and despite what some think are not violent minded at all only resorting to it as a very last measure.

I have seen no evidence that violence begets violence in relation to corporal punishment because an explanation and support is given at the time it is handed out it is not mindless bullying of kids by adults.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Being a parent of three kids, l am proud at there upbringing, one became a police officer, l have a special needs child who goes to college, and my daughter is a mother of three great kids, but l drummed into them at an early age, respect your elders, and appreciate what we taught them, a big major problem is now that kids are allowed to run riot at school, as teachers are NOT ALLOWED to punish them, due to do gooders, that say 'smacking' is imoral, take something from them, put them on the nuaghty chair, absolute b+++++.

Stupid buricrates, hyprorites say, don't punish kids, and the result is what has happened at this school, l know two teachers, that have been threatened with a knife, to his throat, and another has been smacked across the face, AND THEY CANNOT RETALIATE.

When l was bad at Christopher Wren School in Shepherds Bush, we got punished in front of the WHOLE school, BRING this back, and the kids want it again.

Funny thing is my generation were caned in school.The majority didn't become mindless child beating thugs in later life and actually turned out to be rather decent hard working people whom I still meet from time to time as I didn't actually move away from the town I was taught in.

Can't say much for the subsequent generations though who have among their number some very worrying attitudes towards others in their society.

Luckily they are still a minority as most parents try their best despite the best efforts of a few hand wringing social engineering types who can't forbear to intervene in other peoples private lives to force their viewpoints onto the majority. How I would like it if more people stopped taking it upon themselves to tell the rest of us how to conduct ourselves and actually minded their own business.

The reasons i put ADULT and CHILD in capitals was, I thought, obvious but if you don't understand it was meant to signify that a 50 year old had beaten a 14 year old with a
6 pound weight.
looking back through the posts it does seem you are implying that the teacher was right in
attacking the the child:

Originally Posted by alferret

Your right it isnt, but if the little scrote fears retribution for his actions then there is less chance of him being an obnoxious, verbally abusive little smeggy git, respect doesnt come into it, string the little gits up by their ankles till they wet themselves, sod the PC brigade. Its about time kids learnt the way we did before all this PC crap came about.

Originally Posted by alferret

If someone were goading me, taking the urine and swearing at me regardless if they are 14 or 40 they would get a slap up the side of the head from me.

There was none or very little abusive behaviour towards teachers 25 or more years ago, get rid of discipline and this is the result unruly kids who have no respect for themselves, their parents, teachers, police or even people walking down the street.

Its about time we got back to the old ways of dealing with oiks.

Originally Posted by alferret

Regardless of the discussions that are going on the teacher was wrong to do what he done, the kid was wrong for also doing what he done and two wrongs dont make a right, everything will come out in the wash.

Originally Posted by alferret

I'm happy with the verdict. My stepson goes to that school & I think its disgusting the way the kids in that lesson baited him into snapping. Also so much BS has been said in the papers regarding the actual event its unreal (but thats papers for you)

Originally Posted by alferret

Whilst beating him around the head, he hit him a maximum of 3 times since when is that a beating?
Dont write for the daily mail do you, over exageration is such a daily rag trait.



Yes there is a place for for punishment in schools, if it wernt for the fact that we are now controlled by do-gooders who have no idea about anything than the blinkered live's they lead the country wouldnt be over run by insolent oiks who know that all they have to do is cry to the old bill, make up stories and get people arrested. Why because they can and they know what they need to do to get "the job done".

As for me being flippant, so what LOL I think I am serious about important matters I just dont get so bloody anal about it do I? Unlike

As for getting back on the subject of Mr Harvey, all you know is what you haave read in the papers and seen on TV, bit like chinese whispers where as I have a little bit more info than most of the rubbish printed in the papers.

nffc
Why is his age relevant? He was 14

[alferret]

Originally Posted by dgardner

The reasons i put ADULT and CHILD in capitals was, I thought, obvious but if you don't understand it was meant to signify that a 50 year old had beaten a 14 year old with a
6 pound weight.
looking back through the posts it does seem you are implying that the teacher was right in
attacking the the child:

I'm 43 years old pal with a lot of miles under my belt, I may be a little rough round the edges & not as eloquently a wordsmith like some people on here but I am not stupid I understand fully what the difference is between and adult and a child, it doesnt need pointing out. Last time I looked though a 14 yr old wasnt a child (I bet if you called him that to his face he would have spat in your eye) He is a young man nearly an adult, actually closer to an adult than a child thats why they call them TEENAGERS.

Obviously being 2am when you posted this it seems to me that you dont read to well, I see you missed the bit where I said

Originally Posted by alferret

Hey I have an opinion so you need to chill a little, smoke some 'erb & kick back.

The situation is what it is and at no point did I say that what he did was ok or imply.

Selective quoting at its worse lol (oh & dont say "I was only pointing out the bits where you said blah blah) because that point was & is relevant to what you are saying about me so......

Let me state for the record AGAIN!

I do not condone what Mr Harvey done, what happened to that young man was inexcusable but. How much verbal & mental abuse should one person take especially if that person was known to be in a fragile state of mind?
The school and his doctors all knew that he was on the verge of a breakdown and the kids in his class knew that too. What gives them (the kids) the right to verbally abuse a 50yr old man? Do you condone what the kids have done? You can (not you personally) argue the point where 10-15 pupils all aged between 14 & 15 are picking on a vunerable person that when that person snapped what happened as a result was wrong (which it was) but should that person be held responsible for his actions to the point where he is charged for attempted murder? I dont think so & neither did the Judge or jury.
I am pleased he got the lesser charge, which is what it should have been all along and that he is a free man. I also think that the fallout of his actions means that he will be unemployable as a teacher for the rest of his working life but the authorities owe him due to their lack of care which allowed him back into work in the first place, it was obvious that he wasnt in a fit state mentally.
I personally think that every kid in that classroom that goaded Mr Harvey into his breakdown should be charged with verbal & mental abuse, excluded, no expelled from the school and that the local education authority deny them an education because at the end of the day they behaved like a wild pack of animals.

Dont like what I write put me on ignore you wont be the first lol.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by dgardner

nffc
Why is his age relevant? He was 14

And as I asked. Why is that relevant to the point?

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by nffc

Why is his age relevant? He was 14, not exactly a vulnerable little boy is he? And what about the other 9 times he'd been in trouble for being disruptive in class since starting secondary school?

I'm not condoning the attack but everyone has their limit and this person overstepped another person's limit, so he snapped.

A point which was denied and never proved. But still, let's beat every child who had been a bit naughty in class, that'll show 'em.

This boy had apparently been playing sword fights with another student, when told to stop he swore at the teacher. Now, that is certainly not something I would ever condone my two boys doing, but it may have been an unguarded response. I would fully expect my two children to be appropriate;y punished at school, not to mention the trouble they would be in when they got home. But beating them over the head with a three kilogram dumbbell can never, ever be justified, no matter what the provocation.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

Originally Posted by alferret

Selective quoting at its worse lol (oh & dont say "I was only pointing out the bits where you said blah blah) because that point was & is relevant to what you are saying about me so......

Let me state for the record AGAIN!

I do not condone what Mr Harvey done, what happened to that young man was inexcusable but. How much verbal & mental abuse should one person take especially if that person was known to be in a fragile state of mind?

But that is exactly what you are doing, your posts on this thread are testament to that.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by dgardner

nffc
Why is his age relevant? He was 14

That doesn't explain why his age is relevant. He may well have been 14, but could have been 6 foot and built like a brick outhouse. I was at 14. As such, he would be more than capable of defending himself.

That's not to say I think the teacher was right. He was not. I don't object to hitting (as I have stated in the past), but the teacher hit him with a 6 pound weight (which, despite being light, can do a lot of damage to the body) and he should not have hit the boy on the head (even one hit to the head can be fatal).

I was talking to a friend the other night (who is a trainee teacher), and she said there is some discussion amongst her work colleagues as to whether the teacher was fit for a return to work (he had a breakdown due to stress and had been off work). Of course, that is just staff room gossip, and it's easy to be wise after the event.

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:19 ----------

Assuming the kids were baiting him (and if they were filming, I'd lay odds they were), then I hope the school attempts to find those who were responsible and punishes them. That is a form of bullying and NO ONE should have to put up with being bullied.