I wonder how far this will go

[Flyboy]

My first thought was also about the filming inside a magistrates court

What he is doing is conveniently "stealing" parts of law and trying to apply them, inappropriately, to other parts of the law, for example, the legal fiction principal. The police (and to some degree the magistrates themselves), who generally know very little about law, are totally flummoxed, as they really don't know which way to turn. For a start, from what I understand, commercial court is a sub-division of the Queens bench, with in turn is a division of the High Court. The magistrates court is not part of the High Courts of Justice. As far as I know commercial court does not deal with taxation, it deals with contract and corporate law.

[Kymmy]

Is council tax actual taxation.. It goes to the council not the national treasury???

This is a Magistrates Court action bought on by someone refusing to pay Council Tax.
I have seen people mention that this guy is using Common Law and it being Ancient.

What do you think Council Tax is?
If you think about it its origins date back to the 13th century and the Magna Carta. Farmers and Peasants were heavily taxed by the rich land owners.

So if you want to argue Common Law is Ancient then the idea of Council Tax is even older

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by zing

If it was all BS then what does come out of this is that neither the Magistrates or the Police know enough about the law. If what he was saying is true the the Police knew the score and the Magistrates were unsure.

Surely if the guy was talking BS then in all that time someone in the courts ,specially the prosecutor who you assume has a law degree and with such would be the highest qualified in law in the room should have been able to sort it out and arrests be made

If the guy was to turn out to be right and tasers were used then it would be someone like you who would have to arrest the taser user for assault

This is the crux of the problem and is a fine example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The "layman" had read somewhere that he could get away with this and gave it a try. The magistrates, who are mostly laypeople as well, do not know enough about the law to ab able to say for certain whether what this person is saying is true and perhaps in the interests of justice are willing to consider that he may be right. They then used their powers of authority on the court to have him removed. The "layman" threatens the security guard with legal action if he tries to eject him from the court (another assumption I am making, is that they are quite entitled to use reasonable force to achieve this) and he asks the magistrates if this was true, but they now too wound up to make a reasonable judgement. I also suspect they are doing their best to protect members of the public (or even just themselves) from being involved in, what could potentially turn into, a riotous protest.

I would love to see what the aftermath of this incident was. I would suspect (more of a hope really), that after some in depth consultation with lawyers, proficient in constitutional law, they will plonk more summonses on these people's doorsteps and prosecute to the fullest.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Is council tax actual taxation.. It goes to the council not the national treasury???

The point is, that his assertion that the magistrates court is a commercial court is spurious. I am not actually sure whether taxation is solely limited to the national exchequer, but I doubt it.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by zing

If it was all BS then what does come out of this is that neither the Magistrates or the Police know enough about the law. If what he was saying is true the the Police knew the score and the Magistrates were unsure.

After forcing myself to watch and listen to it and resisting the urge to throw myself off the nearest tall building my impression remains that the 'freemen' are full of self-importance and the cops didn't want to create a scene.

The courts powers and responsibilities have evolved over time and they seem to be harking back to ages past. Next they'll be killing Welshmen with bows and arrows within city walls and claiming thats allowed.

Oh and am I the only one who finds it amusing that it's an English freeman causing the fuss in a Welsh court?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I would love to see what the aftermath of this incident was. I would suspect (more of a hope really), that after some in depth consultation with lawyers, proficient in constitutional law, they will plonk more summonses on these people's doorsteps and prosecute to the fullest.

There was a perfectly good lawyer there charging £400 an hour for in this case doing nothing, instead of standing there grinning like an idiot she could have at least phoned her office to find out if anyone knows, mind you that might have been what she was grinning at, the prospect of charging another few hundred quid to find out for them.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

The police (and to some degree the magistrates themselves), who generally know very little about law, are totally flummoxed, as they really don't know which way to turn.

Yep. Ask me about the misuse of drugs act 1971, the road traffic act 1988 or common law crimes in Scots law like assault, theft etc. and you'll get an answer thats probably 100% correct.

Ask me about constitutional matters and authority of the courts and I'll be running screaming for the hills.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

The point is, that his assertion that the magistrates court is a commercial court is spurious. I am not actually sure whether taxation is solely limited to the national exchequer, but I doubt it.

I thought he meant commercial as in people involved make money. Magistrates get paid etc? I didnt think he meant commercial like county courts etc

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by zing

I thought he meant commercial as in people involved make money. Magistrates get paid etc? I didnt think he meant commercial like county courts etc

Don't think Magistrates do get paid...

Originally Posted by Derek S

Yep. Ask me about the misuse of drugs act 1971, the road traffic act 1988 or common law crimes in Scots law like assault, theft etc. and you'll get an answer thats probably 100% correct.

Ask me about constitutional matters and authority of the courts and I'll be running screaming for the hills.

see what you said there? look at the crimes that are part of Common Law. All the really important ones are part of Common Law, IE Murder, Assault,Theft. Lesser crimes are part of constitutional law so it does look to me like the greater of the laws is Common Law.

There is a chance that this guy is totally correct in what he did under Common Law and if he was fair play. Afterall Magistraits are just regular Joes supposedly picked because of their impeccable character etc but if they do not know the law then who are they to law judgement upon us.

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by zing

What do you think Council Tax is?
If you think about it its origins date back to the 13th century and the Magna Carta. Farmers and Peasants were heavily taxed by the rich land owners.

So if you want to argue Common Law is Ancient then the idea of Council Tax is even older

Actually no, they were taxed by the monarch of the time and not by the landowners and the landowners could not impose a tax only rent/rates..

Originally Posted by Derek S

Personally I'd give the court officials a taser and anyone who is able to stand and refuses gets a shock to assist them out their seats.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Don't think Magistrates do get paid...

a quick google supports that so I dunno then

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by zing

I thought he meant commercial as in people involved make money. Magistrates get paid etc? I didnt think he meant commercial like county courts etc

If he had bothered to research his little rant a bit more, he might have got away with relating it to the chancery division (still wouldn't make it correct), but that doesn't sound as "corrupt" as calling it the "commercial" court. But it still stands that the magistrate's court is not the High Court, it is a district court.

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Actually no, they were taxed by the monarch of the time and not by the landowners and the landowners could not impose a tax only rent/rates..

you do realise that only a little over 20 years ago what you paid the council was called rates do you not? it was then called Poll Tax which fell flat on its arse and is now called Council Tax. Does the fact that you end up in magistrates court not demonstrate that its not really a tax at all? but still the same Rates as you mentioned that dates back 800 years

[Derek]

Originally Posted by zing

see what you said there? look at the crimes that are part of Common Law. All the really important ones are part of Common Law, IE Murder, Assault,Theft. Lesser crimes are part of constitutional law so it does look to me like the greater of the laws is Common Law.

Scots law is completely different to English/Welsh law. There are plenty of crimes up here that are pretty important covered by statute.
AFAIK almost all crimes, if not all, are covered by statute in Englandshire.