Complaints to Virgin Media. How not to do it.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Russ

How do you know they're lying? What if the TL/Manager told their team that they're actually off to a meeting? Does your phone have a BS detector built in or something?

I might have to produce one of those. A phone with a built in voice stress analyser. That has potential.

I'll give you some royalties.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

How do you know they're lying? What if the TL/Manager told their team that they're actually off to a meeting? Does your phone have a BS detector built in or something?

But when I ask, "who is in charge?" the answer is almost always, "I don't know." The other alternatives are, "me," "someone in a different office/city/country," or "I will get someone to call you back" (which never happens). I am sorry, but there is no way that every single manager, at all times, is always in a meeting. There is no way that customer service representatives are placed in charge of an entire department, for hours on end, with no management contact. Any manager worth their salt would be able to tell their staff where and when their meeting starts and finishes. They should also appoint some to make decisions in their absence and where they can be reached, or a contact to someone who can make higher level decisions. This is what I always demand of my project managers and I don't see what it should be any more difficult for a business a thousand times the size of mine. If I ask," what would happen in an emergency and they needed to contact someone in charge, who would they contact, this is when they start to "umm and err." If one asks about a specific company policy and why that policy exists, the typical answers are, "I don't know," or "I don't need to know" and when one asks how can we get the answer, we are told, "that information does not exist."

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

But when I ask, "who is in charge?" the answer is almost always, "I don't know." The other alternatives are, "me," "someone in a different office/city/country," or "I will get someone to call you back" (which never happens). I am sorry, but there is no way that every single manager, at all times, is always in a meeting. There is no way that customer service representatives are placed in charge of an entire department, for hours on end, with no management contact. Any manager worth their salt would be able to tell their staff where and when their meeting starts and finishes. They should also appoint some to make decisions in their absence and where they can be reached, or a contact to someone who can make higher level decisions. This is what I always demand of my project managers and I don't see what it should be any more difficult for a business a thousand times the size of mine. If I ask," what would happen in an emergency and they needed to contact someone in charge, who would they contact, this is when they start to "umm and err." If one asks about a specific company policy and why that policy exists, the typical answers are, "I don't know," or "I don't need to know" and when one asks how can we get the answer, we are told, "that information does not exist."

It seems to me that you're in no position whatsoever to decide when they are lying or not. Hell yeah I know how frustrating it is to come up against a 'traffic warden' type agent but it doesn't mean they're lying. They could very well have been told that management can't take calls on that particular day. I'm not saying it's right, in fact I agree that someone should always be available to take an escalation (and not a "senior member of the team" which means nothing at all as usually they're just frontline people who have been doing the job a number of years) but it does NOT mean the person you're talking to is lying.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

It seems to me that you're in no position whatsoever to decide when they are lying or not.

I am actually pretty good at telling when people are lying, it copmes with experience. If they are lying to me, I am sorry, but I am in a position to challenge them on it.

Hell yeah I know how frustrating it is to come up against a 'traffic warden' type agent but it doesn't mean they're lying. They could very well have been told that management can't take calls on that particular day.

There is a difference between unable to take calls, to being in a meeting. Is every call centres' management, in the world, all in a meeting, all at the same time? If they are unable to take calls, they should say so and not lie about being in meeting.

I'm not saying it's right, in fact I agree that someone should always be available to take an escalation (and not a "senior member of the team" which means nothing at all as usually they're just frontline people who have been doing the job a number of years) but it does NOT mean the person you're talking to is lying.

Another lie told is, "I am the manager." Until one gets through to the real manager, who tells you that the previous person you were talking to was not the manager at all.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I am actually pretty good at telling when people are lying, it copmes with experience. If they are lying to me, I am sorry, but I am in a position to challenge them on it.

Oh right. So Flyboy knows best again then? Sorry but no, you don't know if someone is lying or not. You might think you have a good idea but you don't know with any degree of credability.

When I worked at Tmobile if I couldn't give someone the discount they wanted or extra minutes etc I'd get accused of lying about it all the time. You'd be amazed at the number of people who just "knew" I was lying.

They, just like yourself have no idea if the agent is lying about there being no-one to talk to or being unable to give them what they want.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Another lie told is, "I am the manager." Until one gets through to the real manager, who tells you that the previous person you were talking to was not the manager at all.

And you know this second person is a 'real ' manager how? Your 'Spider sense' is tingling again?

[Welshchris]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Not really.. It's a perfectly valid option, and indeed, one I would recommend. After all, if a company continues to fail and continually refuses to improve (which is I believe what WelshChris is implying), to paraphrase Star Wars, Who is more foolish? The company that fails to provide a service or the customer who pays for that service every month?

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------



Well, no it probably didn't. The staff at the CEO's office (of *any* company, not just Virgin) are usually interested in any area where Customer Service is failing, because if CS fails, they have no customers and no business..


Although it probably took a look more hassle than it would have if you were nice..

Being nice rarely gets u anywhere with virgin especially when the problem had gone on for 4 months anyway.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

Oh right. So Flyboy knows best again then? Sorry but no, you don't know if someone is lying or not. You might think you have a good idea but you don't know with any degree of credability.

When I worked at Tmobile if I couldn't give someone the discount they wanted or extra minutes etc I'd get accused of lying about it all the time. You'd be amazed at the number of people who just "knew" I was lying.

They, just like yourself have no idea if the agent is lying about there being no-one to talk to or being unable to give them what they want.

Your rather lame rhetoric aside, when they say stuff like, "every manager in the whole company is in a meeting" and they say that every time one asks to speak to a manager. I think even the least perceptual person would be able to tell that they are lying. Or are seriously trying to tell us that they never lie. But hang on....in your previous post, you agreed that sometimes they lie.

And you know this second person is a 'real ' manager how? Your 'Spider sense' is tingling again?

Well.....it kind of stands to reason one of them is lying, doesn't it.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Your rather lame rhetoric aside, when they say stuff like, "every manager in the whole company is in a meeting" and they say that every time one asks to speak to a manager. I think even the least perceptual person would be able to tell that they are lying. Or are seriously trying to tell us that they never lie. But hang on....in your previous post, you agreed that sometimes they lie.

Don't go putting words in my mouth, I haven't said they never lie. But just because you can't have what you want does not make them a liar. At Tmobile team leaders and section managers would be in meetings 2 or 3 times a day, that's a fact of working there. The people who would usually take escalations would be Senior Team Members, each team would have at least 2. Sounds all very impressive and yes they had extensive knowledge and experience but had no authority to do anything major. Often a customer like yourself would demand to speak to a manager and sometimes there were none around. Of course, we'd occasionally be accused of lying but it was a case of either speak to the team senior or wait until the TL comes out of meeting and calls you back, the timescale of which I'd never give as I don't make promises on other peoples' behalf.

Just accept that sometimes you don't know it all and that you won't always get what you want.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Well.....it kind of stands to reason one of them is lying, doesn't it.

So how would you know which one? Which one would you be accusing? Both of them perhaps?

Nobody is saying CSA always tell the truth or do their job properly, just like not all customers tell the truth. But to accuse agents of lying just because you're not getting your way is quite frankly, childish.

Why anyone would want to speak to a manager about a technical issue is beyond me. Managers in VM are not technical.

If you have a complaint to make then write to the complaints address, you then have written proof of your complaint.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

Don't go putting words in my mouth, I haven't said they never lie. But just because you can't have what you want does not make them a liar. At Tmobile team leaders and section managers would be in meetings 2 or 3 times a day, that's a fact of working there. The people who would usually take escalations would be Senior Team Members, each team would have at least 2. Sounds all very impressive and yes they had extensive knowledge and experience but had no authority to do anything major. Often a customer like yourself would demand to speak to a manager and sometimes there were none around. Of course, we'd occasionally be accused of lying but it was a case of either speak to the team senior or wait until the TL comes out of meeting and calls you back, the timescale of which I'd never give as I don't make promises on other peoples' behalf.

Just accept that sometimes you don't know it all and that you won't always get what you want.

You see, this says it all. You are assuming that there are categories of customer. Stereotyping and compartmentalising customers is not a good way to treat them. Perhaps this is why you had more than your fair share of grumpy callers.

So how would you know which one? Which one would you be accusing? Both of them perhaps?

Nobody is saying CSA always tell the truth or do their job properly, just like not all customers tell the truth. But to accuse agents of lying just because you're not getting your way is quite frankly, childish.

So, let's get this straight; if all the managers in the whole company are not in a meeting and the customer is told that they are in a meeting, I shouldn't have the right to accuse someone of lying, even though they are?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

You see, this says it all. You are assuming that there are categories of customer. Stereotyping and compartmentalising customers is not a good way to treat them. Perhaps this is why you had more than your fair share of grumpy callers.

We'd get the usual same 7 or 8 types of caller and it's not exclusive to Tmobile - I'll bet VM has its own list of callers that most of its customers adhere to. It's not a negative thing, it's something focus groups put together to improve service and iad training where possible. In fact just about any reputable callcentre would have such a 'list'. But in your case I was talking about the type who will accuse the agent of lying just because you can't have what you want.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

So, let's get this straight; if all the managers in the whole company are not in a meeting and the customer is told that they are in a meeting, I shouldn't have the right to accuse someone of lying, even though they are?

But how would you know if they were in a meeting or not? How could you deduce from that that the agent is lying? On what basis would you accuse them of being liar? Simply because you can't have what you want? If it turned out the agent was lying then they deserve instant dismissal. But YOU have no way of knowing at that point and no right to call them a liar.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

We'd get the usual same 7 or 8 types of caller and it's not exclusive to Tmobile - I'll bet VM has its own list of callers that most of its customers adhere to. It's not a negative thing, it's something focus groups put together to improve service and iad training where possible. In fact just about any reputable callcentre would have such a 'list'. But in your case I was talking about the type who will accuse the agent of lying just because you can't have what you want.



But how would you know if they were in a meeting or not? How could you deduce from that that the agent is lying? On what basis would you accuse them of being liar? Simply because you can't have what you want? If it turned out the agent was lying then they deserve instant dismissal. But YOU have no way of knowing at that point and no right to call them a liar.

If they tell me, for the third day in a row, that every single manager in the entire company is in a meeting, I can assume that is a lie. Because there is not a business, of this size, in the world that would call every single manager it has, into a meeting at the same time, for three days running, without leaving adequate cover. Do you think that VM is that incompetent?

If I get told that the call handler cannot transfer me to someone in the UK, because they don't have the facility to do so, whereas that same morning I was transferred to someone in the UK, I can safely assume they are lying.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

If they tell me, for the third day in a row, that every single manager in the entire company is in a meeting, I can assume that is a lie. Because there is not a business, of this size, in the world that would call every single manager it has, into a meeting at the same time, for three days running, without leaving adequate cover. Do you think that VM is that incompetent?

OK you need to know a few things. Tmobile (and presumably other companies too) get all team leaders and above in to daily meetings. Usually twice on a shift, occasionally more - it might have changed recently but that's how it was when I left 3 years ago. The cover that's left in place would be the Senior Team Member, usually 2 on each team. These are people with numerous years' experience and have passed internal exams to prove their competency. Should a caller demand an escalation when one of these meetings is on, they'll get no further than an STM. If they're not happy at that they can wait for the TL to call them back.

So yes, it's quite feasible for a company to temporarily remove all management from the callcentre floor for meetings. Maybe VM do the same, I have no idea.

In any case I'm glad you've backed down from assuming someone is lying if they won't pass you on to a manager, to assuming they're lying if it happens 3 days in a row.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

If I get told that the call handler cannot transfer me to someone in the UK, because they don't have the facility to do so, whereas that same morning I was transferred to someone in the UK, I can safely assume they are lying.

I'm assuming you're talking about Indian callcentres? Don't get me started on those

If you were put through to a UK support agent, then that was pure luck.
The call tree doesn't allow for transferring to a country unless its the 50Mbit support line.

Originally Posted by xocemp

If you were put through to a UK support agent, then that was pure luck.
The call tree doesn't allow for transferring to a country unless its the 50Mbit support line.

Now there's some very useful inside info.

Flyboy, how safe do you suppose your assumptions to be now?