"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Which is why I asked the question - thank you, however, for answering on his behalf.

I wasn't. I was going to tell you whether you asked him or not.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So he should be locked because he allegedly has Asperger's?

How do those sort of actions square up with having Asperger's?
National Autistic Society

He seemed not to have enough of a problem imagining a ruse of a lost football, communicating and interacting with a young boy about that, in order to achieve his aims.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------


If it is just about "power", would there be such a thing as paedophilia? Wouldn't it just be a case of wanting "power" over young/old, male/female, human/animal or any combination of those with no specific preference for a single group.

I believe that I have yet to see such a distasteful, prejudiced and quite frankly, ignorant series of posts in my entire life. You have absolutley not one iota of evidence that his Autism was the driving force behind his motivations. You have not one inkling of how the condition affects the decision making process of a sufferer and you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Your comments disgusts me and all parents of children who have to live this condition day in and day out. How dare even pretend to know what it is like for a child growing up with Aspergers and how it affects them and all around them. Your belief that reading a few lines on a website makes you an expert in how the condition works, is ignorant and lazy and has no place on this forum. I dare you to call the NAS and spout the same BS to them and see what response you get.

I will not give two hoots about any response you may give to this post, because you have destroyed any credibility you may have in even producing a mere utterance upon the subject.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I believe that I have yet to see such a distasteful, prejudiced and quite frankly, ignorant series of posts in my entire life. You have absolutley not one iota of evidence that his Autism was the driving force behind his motivations. You have not one inkling of how the condition affects the decision making process of a sufferer and you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Your comments disgusts me and all parents of children who have to live this condition day in and day out. How dare even pretend to know what it is like for a child growing up with Aspergers and how it affects them and all around them. Your belief that reading a few lines on a website makes you an expert in how the condition works, is ignorant and lazy and has no place on this forum. I dare you to call the NAS and spout the same BS to them and see what response you get.

I will not give two hoots about any response you may give to this post, because you have destroyed any credibility you may have in even producing a mere utterance upon the subject.

I referred to the 'alleged' Asperger's. As such I am not linking the two, in fact I am pointing out that his actions were inconsistent with Autism as specified by the link to the National Autistic Society webpage on Asperger's.

This is the post that brought up Asperger's with regards to this case.

Originally Posted by Osem

I've heard reports that the lad in question has Aspergers Syndrome. If this indeed the case, it might go some way to explaining why the first judge acted as he/she did but it doesn't explain why sufficient supervisiory conditions weren't applied in order to keep him from reoffending. Where a crime is committed by someone who's mentally ill, I think it should be incumbent upon the authorities to ensure that the punishment imposed is intended first and foremost to protect the public and then to assist that individual, if possible, to modify/control their behaviour. This latter goal may well have been behind the initial decision not to jail the lad but tragically, in the absence of effective supervision/controls, he was able to reoffend.

My initial reaction to that post was this:-

Originally Posted by nomadking

If someone has been found to have an untreatable medical condition and that condition is alleged to have played a part in them committing a serious crime, that is all the more reason to lock them up, as they are certainly going to commit another offence.
...

I didn't bring up the issue of Asperger's and no link for that claim was provided by the person that did. My reply refers to where an untreatable mental illness of whatever sort is used as mitigation for a serious crime of whatever sort.

This is the post that sought to possibly link Asperger's to it.

Originally Posted by Osem

Which is pretty much what I've said.

None of us have any idea what aspect(s) of this lad's personality have caused him to behave in this way. The Aspergers may be a significant part of the reason in this case but that will be up to experts to determine. If that is indeed found to be the case and deemed a mitigating factor than punishing this lad in the same manner as a cold, calculating paedophile with no such 'mitigating' conditions would seem to me to be unfair.

Protecting the public is however a different issue and clearly this lad must be held in custody for that reason. Prisons are not the place for mentally ill people yet many such people are languishing inside them. IMO secure units which can offer whatever remedial treatments there may be or at least provide a seccure environment which is less likely to cause the offender's behaviour to spiral out of control are a far better option.

I have NEVER tried to link the two things and have only responded to that specific mental condition in reply to what 'Osem' has said. Even then pointing out the general position that a mental condition should not provide a 'get out of jail free' card for a serious offence.

It is my understanding that one of the cornerstones of autism is lack of interaction. I checked that on the National Autistic Society website.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So he should be locked because he allegedly has Asperger's?

How do those sort of actions square up with having Asperger's?
National Autistic Society

He seemed not to have enough of a problem imagining a ruse of a lost football, communicating and interacting with a young boy about that, in order to achieve his aims.

I'm a tad confused here because you seem to be disagreeing with someone who isn't entirely disagreeing with you. I'm well aware of the traits associated with Asperger's syndrome but as with all such conditions there is a wide range of expression between the worst and least affected and that's why I couched my sentiments in the way I did. I've said it's up to the experts, who will no doubt examine this lad, to determine what IF ANY part his condition played in the attacks and how best to deal with that. As I've said more than once now, keeping this lad in custody out of harm's way should be paramount but the environment in which he is held should be appropriate and prison isn't necessarily the best option. I haven't stated that because he has Aspergers he shouldn't be punished or locked up.

Since you now have an interest in Asperger's syndrome, take a look at the documentary I linked to here (the relevant section starts about 3 minutes into the programme but is returned to several times during the show) - Cameron, the teenage lad with Aspergers exhibits some very aggressive/threatening behaviour yet in my personal experience those traits aren't the norm with Aspergers sufferers. Does that mean he/they don't really have the condition or that he has it worse or possibly has other issues layered within his personality which account for the aggression etc.?

In this terrible case neither you or I know the answer to these questions so we must leave it to the experts in such fields to ascertain as many of the facts as possible and I would fully support appropriate custodial means by which to treat his issues and keep the public safe.

[nomadking]

My understanding of autism is that sufferers can become agitated if their routine or some other thing is disrupted, but they don't tend to seek out the attention of other people, as the offender did in this case. That is what makes me suspicious of a diagnosis of Asperger's.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by nomadking

My understanding of autism is that sufferers can become agitated if their routine or some other thing is disrupted, but they don't tend to seek out the attention of other people, as the offender did in this case. That is what makes me suspicious of a diagnosis of Asperger's.

I've come across many autism sufferers and, as stated in my last post, the range of expression of the condition is huge and the behaviour swings can be sudden and pronounced. I know a little autistic lad who for years was so badly affected by his obssession with routine that he wouldn't get on the school bus without a certain routine first and would become extremely agitated if any part of the routine was out of place. With a lot of help, he's now overcome that impediment. On the other hand I've met far more autistic children who don't suffer in that manner and who appreciate routine but are not fixated by it. There are children with autism related diagnoses who live almost in a world of their own yet I've come across others for whom the physical contact/social etiquette aspects of the condition are minimal by comparison.

I should add that, in my experience, diagnoses of Aspergers and autism are not easily obtainable and whilst the terms may be casually bandied around in newspapers and discussions, that's not the same as having a diagnosis. The whole subject is extremely complex and if this lad has a diagnosis it will be documented and will have come about after a whole series of tests and observations by teams of experts in various fields over a good period of time.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

My understanding of autism is that sufferers can become agitated if their routine or some other thing is disrupted, but they don't tend to seek out the attention of other people, as the offender did in this case. That is what makes me suspicious of a diagnosis of Asperger's.

You continue to show your complete ignorance of the subject. I think you should quit whilst your are ahead.

[punky]

There's a good round of the, quite frankly, baffling judgements previously made the judge in the rapist case here:

http://pcbloggs.blogspot.com/2009/11...gain-oops.html

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Or am I misinterpreting your posts?

Originally Posted by Gary L

I think so.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Which is why I asked the question - thank you, however, for answering on his behalf.

Originally Posted by Gary L

I wasn't. I was going to tell you whether you asked him or not.

Once again, Gary, you make no sense.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Once again, Gary, you make no sense.

Nobody else thinks that. have you tried reading it slower?

Originally Posted by Gary L

Nobody else thinks that. have you tried reading it slower?

On what do you base that assertion?

[Derek]

Gah! No. Fricking. Way!

http://www.harlowstar.co.uk/harlowst....asp?ID=459627

ONE of the country’s most prolific teenage thieves has walked free from court – despite owning up to hundreds of offences in which cash and goods totalling more than £1m were stolen.
Yet despite pleading guilty to 20 offences and asking for another 645 to be taken into account, Wernham was spared a jail sentence.
Instead he was ordered to complete 150 hours of unpaid work

Oh it gets better.

he and his partner have been allocated a rent-paid home at an undisclosed address in Chelmsford.

Ooh that sends out a message that crime doesn't pay.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Derek S

Ooh that sends out a message that crime doesn't pay.

All down to him coughing up to the previous 645.

if they were all 645 rapes he'd probably get a new identity thrown in.

[Flyboy]

Err...this is a very old story. I think there is a thread about this on CF already, from months ago.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Err...this is a very old story. I think there is a thread about this on CF already, from months ago.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...ey-repent.html