[Update] BNP on Question Time this week

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Sorry Damien, you appear to have missed the fact that he now acknowledges the fact that it did indeed happen.

So, setting that aside, we're back to "the culpability of the UK government in allowing the Holocaust to go on.."

Over to you. Are you starting to understand the context of political expediency yet?

That was not the current UK government although I imagine they would defer from intervening in other genocides (Rwanda anyone?) which is not much better.

He changed his views because he knew it would turn off a lot of people (although a lot still wouldn't mind, which is depressing). I don't think his reason was good because out of all the other evidence; the people who were there, the soldiers who saw the camps, the camps themselves, the testimony of Germans and former Nazis, the documentation and the bodies, that he wouldn't be convinced until radio incepects is obviously rubbish.

Such views are not a politician's cover up of incompetence they are a cover up of the sick beliefs of him and his ilk.

No other politician would be given the free ride if this emerged about their past as Nick Griffin is from people. If this were Jack Straw's past this forum would be up in arms.

[daveetwo]

What i cant understand is why the program was allowed to be hijacked away from its normal format.
If it was a normal program they should have asked what thier views were on the economy, the post strike, the bankers bonuses, the mp's expenses, europe, afhganistan etc etc etc. (and immigration).
This would should how qualified griffin is to represent anyone in this country in any parliment.
Immigration is important but so are plenty of other aspects of uk way of life.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

Which ones. He answers the Islam one and the Gay one.

Ah, so he did answer questions directly? Just now you said:

He was cut short because he never answered the questions

Thats the problem with this whole issue, people were making sweeping comments about him and his views without backing them up . He could have been pinned down and slaughtered if people had taken the time to hear him out and responded to him properly rather than coming up with throwaway comments.....

He dodged the KKK one, his Holocaust one was pathetic and only answered after many attempts to get him to answer it.

He didn't dodge the kkk one (but his answer was ill advised--'mostly non violent' )
.....and he said that he now agreed that the holocaust had taken place--he was wrong in the past iirc
Whether he believes that or is just saying it for the public is another issue; but todays news reports on what he said ie 'I haven't been convicted of holocaust denial' are are cherry picking his comments to present him in the worst possible light......he said more than that on the subject.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Damien

If this were Jack Straw's past this forum would be up in arms.

It is Jack Straw's past. He's in Government, Griffin - thankfully - isn't.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

No other politician would be given the free ride if this emerged about their past as Nick Griffin is from people. If this were Jack Straw's past this forum would be up in arms.

This forum is up in arms

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Sorry Damien, you appear to have missed the fact that he now acknowledges the fact that it did indeed happen.

So, setting that aside, we're back to "the culpability of the UK government in allowing the Holocaust to go on.."

Over to you. Are you starting to understand the context of political expediency yet?

Mr A, you've lost me on this one.

The radio intercepts have been well known for some years now. It's also well known that they were decrypted at Bletchley Park and there was no way the British Government could have divulged their contents publicly during WW2 without advertising to the Germans the fact that they had cracked the Enigma. Churchill could not act on intelligence about mass slaughter of the Jews without placing the wider war effort in peril - a war effort that was, ultimately, going to be the only practical means of closing down the death camps.

Is it your understanding that Griffin was saying (or would have said, had he been given sufficient time to articulate it) that his acceptance of the Holocaust is tied up with these intercepts entering the public domain?

Were the bnp fully exposed last night no they were not and come on people it is a one hour show that was never going to happen. Did nick griffin do well no he didn't he was avasive, decietful and out and out lying at times and that came across very clearly. Was the audience biased yes it was of course it was we live in a country of 62 million and only one million voted bnp so right there you have the vast majority that do not vote for or support the bnp.

Last night wasn't about fully exposing the bnp it was about exposing nick griffin and in that respect it did succeed more then it failed it also exposed jack straw as the incompetent bumbling politician that he has is and always will be. I cannot believe the amount of animosity there was towards him appearing on this program and personally the anti facists protestors outside the bbc probably did the bnp a bigger favour then the program itself with the way they behaved.

For those saying he was bullied or witch hunted against in that program well now you know how people from certain racial groups feel in areas where the bnp have strong support and please do not expect me to have any sympathy for him for getting a hard time because he got off a lot easier then he should have done or deserved too. He was always going to have a hard time and rightly so you cannot go about for long portions of your life spewing the sort of rubbish he has and then when the public get a chance to make you account for it expect them to go easy.

We need more of the bnp on tv to fully expose them it isn't something that can be done with a single member of the party on a single program we need more senior members on for the whole myth to be exploded. No matter how hard a time you get as a person you are judged by how you handle the bad times and he didn't handle it that well and certainly not as well as he should have done. Don't try telling me he didn't know some of what was coming last night and still he came out with laughable and contemptable things like the kkk guy being mostly non violent .

Personally while most of the unpleasant things about the bnp are about different race i would like to have seen them exposed in other areas such as their true view of the disabled in this country. Because as disgusting and contemptable as their race policys are what i have heard numerous times in bnp pub meetings about how to deal with the disabled would make hitler a very proud little man and would show them up to the british people for the utter animals they are.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Mr A, you've lost me on this one.

The radio intercepts have been well known for some years now. It's also well known that they were decrypted at Bletchley Park and there was no way the British Government could have divulged their contents publicly during WW2 without advertising to the Germans the fact that they had cracked the Enigma. Churchill could not act on intelligence about mass slaughter of the Jews without placing the wider war effort in peril - a war effort that was, ultimately, going to be the only practical means of closing down the death camps.

Is it your understanding that Griffin was saying (or would have said, had he been given sufficient time to articulate it) that his acceptance of the Holocaust is tied up with these intercepts entering the public domain?

This is what I was thinking. My interpretation was that Griffin *was* talking about the 400 Jews that were slaughtered. The implication was that he was not denying there was a holocaust, but didn't actually say anything about the scale, or the existence of death camps. He weaseled his way out of the question by accepting a minor detail had taken place, and not saying anything about the bigger picture. Masterstroke

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Were the bnp fully exposed last night no they were not and come on people it is a one hour show that was never going to happen. Did nick griffin do well no he didn't he was avasive, decietful and out and out lying at times and that came across very clearly. Was the audience biased yes it was of course it was we live in a country of 62 million and only one million voted bnp so right there you have the vast majority that do not vote for or support the bnp.

Last night wasn't about fully exposing the bnp it was about exposing nick griffin and in that respect it did succeed more then it failed it also exposed jack straw as the incompetent bumbling politician that he has is and always will be. I cannot believe the amount of animosity there was towards him appearing on this program and personally the anti facists protestors outside the bbc probably did the bnp a bigger favour then the program itself with the way they behaved.

For those saying he was bullied or witch hunted against in that program well now you know how people from certain racial groups feel in areas where the bnp have strong support and please do not expect me to have any sympathy for him for getting a hard time because he got off a lot easier then he should have done or deserved too. He was always going to have a hard time and rightly so you cannot go about for long portions of your life spewing the sort of rubbish he has and then when the public get a chance to make you account for it expect them to go easy.

We need more of the bnp on tv to fully expose them it isn't something that can be done with a single member of the party on a single program we need more senior members on for the whole myth to be exploded. No matter how hard a time you get as a person you are judged by how you handle the bad times and he didn't handle it that well and certainly not as well as he should have done. Don't try telling me he didn't know some of what was coming last night and still he came out with laughable and contemptable things like the kkk guy being mostly non violent .

Personally while most of the unpleasant things about the bnp are about different race i would like to have seen them exposed in other areas such as their true view of the disabled in this country. Because as disgusting and contemptable as their race policys are what i have heard numerous times in bnp pub meetings about how to deal with the disabled would make hitler a very proud little man and would show them up to the british people for the utter animals they are.

Just spot on.

Originally Posted by danielf

This is what I was thinking. My interpretation was that Griffin *was* talking about the 400 Jews that were slaughtered. The implication was that he was not denying there was a holocaust, but didn't actually say anything about the scale, or the existence of death camps. He weaseled his way out of the question by accepting a minor detail had taken place, and not saying anything about the bigger picture. Masterstroke

Ingenious, I suppose, but only in the same sense as some of the means devised for slaughtering Jews by the dozen were ingenious.

Then again, it may have got him out of a tight spot last night, but it won't stand any morning-after scrutiny. On what basis is he prepared to accept a transcript of a decoded enemy military radio message, yet to reject the testimony of countless eyewitnesses and the copious physical evidence that existed, and still exists? That's highly selective.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Chris

Ingenious, I suppose, but only in the same sense as some of the means devised for slaughtering Jews by the dozen were ingenious.

Then again, it may have got him out of a tight spot last night, but it won't stand any morning-after scrutiny. On what basis is he prepared to accept a transcript of a decoded enemy military radio message, yet to reject the testimony of countless eyewitnesses and the copious physical evidence that existed, and still exists? That's highly selective.

I am sure that was put to him last night in the form of a question/remark "What about Auswitch". I think that just went by unanswered or maybe unheard.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I am sure that was put to him last night in the form of a question/remark "What about Auswitch". I think that just went by unanswered or maybe unheard.

Yes. Correct.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Chris

Mr A, you've lost me on this one.

The radio intercepts have been well known for some years now. It's also well known that they were decrypted at Bletchley Park and there was no way the British Government could have divulged their contents publicly during WW2 without advertising to the Germans the fact that they had cracked the Enigma. Churchill could not act on intelligence about mass slaughter of the Jews without placing the wider war effort in peril - a war effort that was, ultimately, going to be the only practical means of closing down the death camps.

Is it your understanding that Griffin was saying (or would have said, had he been given sufficient time to articulate it) that his acceptance of the Holocaust is tied up with these intercepts entering the public domain?

Chris,

What I'm saying is that Griffin is alluding to the fact that the Government of the day allowed the holocaust to continue. The RAF, without public disclosure of the rationale, could quite simply have bombed the access roads and railway lines which specifically serviced these camps with absolutely zero risk of compromising Bletchley Park or the work of those involved in decoding transmissions.

That they elected not to do so, combined with Churchill's advocacy of the use of poisoned gas, kicks Britain in the toys from an historically anti racist perspective. Griffin is seeking to challenge people's perception to the point that they question the sincerity of any British government when it comes to racism, imperialism etc.

Additionally his "I have trouble with the numbers" explanation last night is a direct reference to a row currently taking place between various secular elements of judaism. He is using their actual terminology and playing on the far right of judaism in relation to repatriation.

This guy is nowhere near as stupid as the mainstream would like to have us believe, nor are those who are coaching him. Last night taught us that much at least.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

I do think Griffin missed an opportunity last night. Surely he would have had an inkling as to what he would be asked, and rather than respond with "I have changed my mind" he should have presented coherent arguments for doing so, as opposed to just smirking. Everyone is entitled to change their mind about views and opinions that they had in the past, but you need to have good arguments for doing so.

Personally I think he could have been given a much harder ride to account his and his party's view. For example the views on disability that Rizzyking put forward in a previous post. The panel, given the short period of time they had, were focussing on his views regarding immigration and race, but they could have gone to task with other BNP policies which perhaps a lot of the audience are not aware off.

I don't think Griffin or the BNP benefited from his appearance yesterday, its a shame it wasn't a longer show, maybe with Paxman or Andrew Marr presenting it.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Chris,

What I'm saying is that Griffin is alluding to the fact that the Government of the day allowed the holocaust to continue. The RAF, without public disclosure of the rationale, could quite simply have bombed the access roads and railway lines which specifically serviced these camps with absolutely zero risk of compromising Bletchley Park or the work of those involved in decoding transmissions.

That they elected not to do so, combined with Churchill's advocacy of the use of poisoned gas, kicks Britain in the toys from an historically anti racist perspective. Griffin is seeking to challenge people's perception to the point that they question the sincerity of any British government when it comes to racism, imperialism etc.

Additionally his "I have trouble with the numbers" explanation last night is a direct reference to a row currently taking place between various secular elements of judaism. He is using their actual terminology and playing on the far right of judaism in relation to repatriation.

This guy is nowhere near as stupid as the mainstream would like to have us believe, nor are those who are coaching him. Last night taught us that much at least.

Insightful and informative as ever ... thanks.

I think there are further issues that bear examination there, although they would be beyond the current topic (availability of resources for raiding death camp supply lines, for example ... the mission would have been morally highly desirable but of limited strategic value at a time when every bomb, bullet, spitfire and Lancaster was vital).

I'm not sure how clever Griffin's strategy is though. Churchill was not a saint, any more than any other man, but nevertheless that's the current popular view of him, and understandably so. Making him out to be a white supremacist of the Nick Griffin kind is only going to inflame opinion.