why is it that when I need to phone VM, they fail to deliver?

[DarthMuppet]

I have been away for 3 days, and when i got back, my WRT54GS had no IP address (using dd-wrt 2.4 pre-SP2, working perfectly when I left). i plugged the modem into the PC, it worked fine, so it's looks like a router issue. I upgraded the firmware, no difference. I gave the router my PC's MAC address, connect the router back into the loop, router got an IP address. So for some reason, VM's DHCP service is ignoring DCHP requests from my router's MAC address. They refuse to do anything as they don't support my router hardware, and refuse to even look at the DHCP server to see if it getting / ignoring requests. If i am really honest, I can't say I'm surprised that they refused, although technically, DHCP is a part of their service and they should at least investigate.

The alternative to a DHCP issue is that someone has cloned my MAC address. this would be in clear breach of VMs terms and conditions (whether they did it knowingly or otherwise), yet they refuse to do anything about it. *That* *really* annoys me. if I did that, and they caught me, I would expect my service to be terminated pretty much immediately. The guy I spoke to also thought that MAC addresses *had* to be globally unique (forgetting the fact that if they did have to be, the individual who cloned mine would not have got on to the VM network at all).

Can anyone else think of any other reasons why I see what I see? if I give the PC the router's MAC address, it doesn't get an address when connected directly to the modem either. When I capture the traffic, I see the DHCP Discover, and nothing more. Right now, I've swapped the PC and router's MACs and all is working fine, but I don't like it. The alternative is a new router (and when dd-wrt supports the WRT-610N, i'll get one), but that needs to be my choice, not VMs.

Anyone think my expectations are unreasonable? Personally, I think the product is excellent, and I would recommend it to anyone, with a warning not to get their hopes up when things go wrong.

[Peter_]

We only support wireless connections using Virgin supplied equipment as only those products fall under the support scope, we are unable to support 3rd party products such as your router and we would advise you to call the manufacturers support line.

We support the direct connection to your PC which actually worked when you removed your router.

To have us able to support 3rd party products such as customers own routers it would cost money, so would you like your bill to increase or the support lines to go back to 25ppm as the cost has to come from somewhere.

[DarthMuppet]

I didn't ask you to support my router, and I never would. I asked you to support your own DHCP service, which you failed to do. DHCP is perhaps the simplest of all things internet. what would it have taken to find my MAC address in your DHCP address, and ask the individual who is in breach of his terms of service to kindly desist in favour of someone who is not? I am of course now making an assumption that this really is the problem - unfortunately, 'your' refusal to take it any further leaves me sort of blind here.

What's more I *proved* whilst I was on the phone my router was not the cause, by giving it my PC's MAC address - but you didn't want to know.

And if I can get to second line support directly when I need it, I'll *gladly* pay 25p a minute. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. I expect first line to fix the run-of-the-mill stuff for free, but clone MAC addresses is a bit more obscure.

[Peter_]

Its your router causing the issue by your own volition because as you say the connection works direct to the modem but not through the router, ergo the router is at fault and the support stops there because the is no actual issue with the connection.

Call the router manufacturer or replace it as Virgin will not investigate a fault with a router not supplied by them.

Also 2nd line will not investigate a fault with your connection which is fine when your 3rd party router is removed either as it is outside of the Support scope.

We do offer support through the PC Help helpline for problems such as this http://www.virginmedia.com/help/pchelp/

[DarthMuppet]

Originally Posted by Moldova

Its your router causing the issue by your own volition because as you say the connection works direct to the modem but not through the router, ergo the router is at fault and the support stops there because the is no actual issue with the connection.

Call the router manufacturer or replace it as Virgin will not investigate a fault with a router not supplied by them.

Apologies, I edited the above post as you were replying. I added this: "What's more I *proved* whilst I was on the phone my router was not the cause, by giving it my PC's MAC address - but you didn't want to know."

So my router is not the issue. still think it's reasonable to not investigate?

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by DarthMuppet

Apologies, I edited the above post as you were replying. I added this: "What's more I *proved* whilst I was on the phone my router was not the cause, by giving it my PC's MAC address - but you didn't want to know."

So my router is not the issue. still think it's reasonable to not investigate?

But it is still a 3 party product and therefore unsupported by Virginmedia here is the link to the Support Scope http://www.virginmedia.com/help/supportscope.php

Our hands are tied and we have to abide by the above criteria and you will see threads on here about us not supporting Outlook for POP3 email, I know it like the back of my hand but I am not allowed to offer support to that product and we get calls like this thread every day and we have to tell them the same answer as above.

[DarthMuppet]

Originally Posted by Moldova

But it is still a 3 party product and therefore unsupported by Virginmedia here is the link to the Support Scope http://www.virginmedia.com/help/supportscope.php

Our hands are tied and we have to abide by the above criteria and you will see threads on here about us not supporting Outlook for POP3 email, I know it like the back of my hand but I am not allowed to offer support to that product and we get calls like this thread every day and we have to tell them the same answer as above.

from your own page - "Secondly, the problem must be to do with something provided by Virgin Media." I'd say your own DHCP service is something provided by you.

OK, if I give my PC my router's MAC address, it does not work when directly connected to the CM. Now you *know* what the fault is (something to do with DHCP), and you can predict the answers to your checklist. Please tell me how you would troubleshoot it, and what the outcome would be for me.

---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:11 ----------

Please bear with me on this. This is not personal, I just genuinely don't understand how VM can call this support or service.

I am ITIL trained, and I have spent all of my career involved in service management, engineering or customer service.

To put this in context, I currently provide last-line support 100,000 users globally as a part of a team of 10. I have 300 first line and about 60 second line before me, and any of them can get straight to me if they need to.

[jamiefrost]

What happens if you give your router a random MAC address will this not solve the problem.

JJ

[Peter_]

I can tell that you are IT trained but as I said above you get a connection direct to the modem but not through the router and the router is not supported, I have no input into the support scope but have to follow it.

[DarthMuppet]

Originally Posted by Moldova

I can tell that you are IT trained but as I said above you get a connection direct to the modem but not through the router and the router is not supported, I have no input into the support scope but have to follow it.

I'm not arguing that at all, in fact I'm asking you to follow your diagnostic process as you would with the advantage of knowing what is actually wrong (assuming I'm right and it is a DHCP issue). if I plug the modem into my PC now, it will not work. You've taken an interest in this personally, and without me taking up anyone else's time on the phone, I would like to know how this would turn out.

Starting from first principles, you should not draw any conclusion about my PC until the diagnostic process is ended. I do not have your diagnostic process, so I don't know what the outcome will be (although I have an idea, and it's not good for me).

Here's a better way of positioning it. Someone has cloned *your* PC's MAC address. what are *you* going to do about it? Whilst you're answering that, bear in mind that this must also be something a user can do.



---------- Post added at 08:13 ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 ----------

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

What happens if you give your router a random MAC address will this not solve the problem.

JJ

Yes it will, and right now, the router and PC have each other's addresses, but that's not the point. I'm a techie, and I can cope with this because I understand it. My point is that a normal non-technical user with only a single PC whose MAC address has been cloned is going to have challenges getting this fixed.

If the techs I spent 45 minutes discussing this with had actually investigated my issue, I'd a) know more about it and b) probably taken up less of their (valuable) time. 'It's not supported' has its place as a stock answer, and it would be entirely appropriate if my router actually had a fault. I've proved it doesn't, and demonstrated that their service does, yet they refuse to continue diagnosis. I sincerely hope Moldova will continue this discussion.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by DarthMuppet

if I plug the modem into my PC now, it will not work.

You don't seem to understand what Moldova is saying. If you phone Virgin up and say 'my connection works when I plug my PC directly into it' then under their support scope your connection is working.

If it doesn't work with other kit that isn't supported - like 3rd part routers - then there is nothing they can do.

Here's a better way of positioning it. Someone has cloned *your* PC's MAC address. what are *you* going to do about it? Whilst you're answering that, bear in mind that this must also be something a user can do.

I'm sure Broadbandings will correct me over this - but I wasn't aware that Virgin's DHCP servers worred about the MAC address of what was connected to the modem. I always though it would be down to whether modem is correctly connected as to whether an IP address is issued

I know that there are systems in place that worry about the MAC address of the modem, but its the modem itself that records anything past itself. That record resets in 24 hours anyway.

Personally I'm not aware of any tool that can see the MAC of customer connect equipment - as all the diagnostic stuff I've seen only queries the MAC address of the modem.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I'm sure Broadbandings will correct me over this - but I wasn't aware that Virgin's DHCP servers worred about the MAC address of what was connected to the modem. I always though it would be down to whether modem is correctly connected as to whether an IP address is issued

Certainly, Virgin's DHCP servers need to worry about what's connected to the modem otherwise none of us would get IP addresses to our equipment we connect to the modem.

The DHCP servers do two transactions for each modem, one providing the modem with its' 10.x IP address for IP level communication and a second transaction providing a public IP address to the device connected to the modem.

The modem directly triggers the first transaction by broadcasting a DHCP discover when it is coming online, it relays the DHCP discover broadcast from the CPE connected to it when that device is trying to get an IP address. The CMTS notes which cable modem this comes from and makes that available to the DHCP server as well as part of the DHCP options.

[BenMcr]

Thanks for the clarification

But would a cloned router MAC -as the OP is saying - stop an IP address being issued?

[Sir John Luke]

At the risk of teaching grandmother.....

Has the OP tried the usual:-

Switch off everything.
Switch on modem - leave until lights settle
Switch on router - leave until lights settle
Switch on PC

Surely the symptoms could be explained by the modem having 'locked on' to the PC's MAC address?

[Toto]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Thanks for the clarification

But would a cloned router MAC -as the OP is saying - stop an IP address being issued?

It would certainly cause problems. I believe it is not possible to assign a public IP address to a cable modem where two CPE's (Client Premise Equipment such as a router or PC)on the same CMTS have the same MAC address. Broadbandings can probably give the correct technical explanation.

The O/P suggests his CPE has been cloned "in breach of Virgins T&C's", I'm not sure this is the case, and its just another user changing their client MAC address in order to resolve an IP lease issue perhaps.

Bottom line - the tech support guys are correct, if you are teching a problem with kit that is not supplied by VM, then there is no support. The O/P has found that a simple MAC address change on the router solves the problem, if I were him I'd move on, problem solved.

The situation could be much worse, for example VM could force its customers to register their equipment MAC addresses, just like the old days of ex cable and wireless (Bromley), and any old tech in Swansea will tell you what a nightmare that was.