Christians arrested for defending their beliefs

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Its clear, regardless of what the Vogelenzangs actually said about Islam - that this is hardly a matter worthy of criminal proceedings. If someone walked up to me and said Jesus lived in the playboy villa just down the road from his carpenters workshop, I seriously doubt I'd be involving the police. Sticks'n stones and all that. I would just take pity on the fool, and walk away.

I agree, I don't think this matter is worthy of criminal proceedings (it's worth of civil proceedings at most, and that's pushing it).

However, I will say one thing. We do not know the whole story. We only have the word of the couple who are accused. I doubt they would say if they had done anything worse than call Mohammed a warlord and Islamic dress a form of bondage, even if they had done something worse than that..

Both the Police and CPS (who, from what I have been told by various people, are not always easy to convince) clearly think there is evidence of a case to answer, and they have probably seen all the evidence, not just what we have seen.

[Sparkle]

Indeed the CPS and police investigating the matter know far more of the specifics than we do, but I personally wouldn't put trust them to apply reason and common sense any further than I could throw 'em.
They do make some really daft decisions sometimes, most if not all of us can think of specific cases which highlight the level of hypocracy that exist within the confines of our criminal justice system.
The cynic in me says the CPS would pursue a case such as this even if only just to make an example of an innocent couple for the purposes of demonstrating to < insert name of desired non-christian religious group whom the CPS wishes to show equality> that both the police and CPS enforce UK law without bias nor prejudice. The optimist in me says "Aye that could be true, but that might not be the case here.".

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Interestingly put and I do agree, though I do tend to feel that foreigners entering this country should make every effort to abide by our rules and customs, and I would extend this to include the way in which we conduct our faiths. Under our system, the same system that our forefathers fought and gave their lives to preserve - we do allow others to express their opinion(s) without getting our knickers in the knot, provided its done within reason. At least, we are supposed to - though this hasn't always been exactly followed to the letter. One only has to look at the situation in N. Ireland to see where I'm going with this !
If we don't like whats being said, we can make counter arguments or we can simply walk away.
However, as has been said, lacking the specifics of the case in question - we don't really know if the comments were innocently made in passing - or whether they were made to cause deliberate offense.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 ----------



Thanks Russ, I'm a cableforum noob - not quite so much a noob when it comes to these types of discussions tho.

First of all there is no evidence that the person involved was not born in this country. Being a Muslim does not mean that they were foreign.

Secondly, what are those traditions and values, or "rules and customs"? Are they the ones that promote and welcome diversity and tolerance of others? Or the ones that that say, "if you want to live in this country, abide by our rules, or else?" There is no evidence reported that the Vogelenzangs were anything other than malignant, or that they were anything but benign, but whatever they were, was clearly enough for the police to investigate and the CPS to recommend a prosecution.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

First of all there is no evidence that the person involved was not born in this country. Being a Muslim does not mean that they were foreign.

Indeed, the nationality of the lodger hasn't been revealed afaik, but the religion is non-indigenous to the UK. The point I was making was in reference to Stuart's comment about certain other cultures/religions not taking lightly to anyone taking a "pop at their God". We are supposed to tolerate this, it is part of what makes our system free, and its something we should all take pride in.

Secondly, what are those traditions and values, or "rules and customs"? Are they the ones that promote and welcome diversity and tolerance of others? Or the ones that that say, "if you want to live in this country, abide by our rules, or else?"

It certainly isn't the one where you abide by our rules or we cut your head off. I'd describe it more in line with the spirit of free speech that exists within this country, where it doesn't in others. Within the spirit of free speech which exists here, you can state you believe that all religions are only as real as Santa Claus and/or the Tooth Fairy, but you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded cinema. The problem exists where we as individuals have to decide where to draw the line, some people can't do this for reasons which escape me to this day.
If the offended lodger in question was merely minding her own business and then found herself verbally assaulted, then clearly there is little doubt as to where the blame lies. On the other hand, from the initial account of the incident - it seemed to me that they were all having a discussion, and some things were said that the other party disagreed with. This is still early days yet, and the newspaper accounts mean relatively little, in time we'll get the full scoop.

There is no evidence reported that the Vogelenzangs were anything other than malignant, or that they were anything but benign, but whatever they were, was clearly enough for the police to investigate and the CPS to recommend a prosecution.

A friend of mine was due to be prosecuted for being 3 mph over the speed limit whereas the "guidelines" state 10% + 2mph. It was 33mph in a 30 iirc, whereas the guidelines state 36 mph to face points and a fine. Even though such proceedings defy everyday common sense, the police clearly didn't take issue with such action being taken.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Indeed, the nationality of the lodger hasn't been revealed afaik, but the religion is non-indigenous to the UK.

Neither is Christianity.

[Sparkle]

Aye, I'm under no illusions of Christianity being founded in Hartlepool (lol) but this island has been a Christian country for eons. For all purposes concerned, in my view - it might as well have been founded here.

[Russ]

So given the rise of Islam in the UK, you have no objections to a Muslim taking the same view?

[Reedy]

I wish they'd arrest all Christians who go round banging on peoples doors.

[Russ]

I wish they'd arrest people who post off-topic digs in threads.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Russ B

So given the rise of Islam in the UK, you have no objections to a Muslim taking the same view?

Well, it could easily be argued that the Romans destroyed our truly indegenous ancient cultures throughout much of the British mainland, they destroyed the druid common link that all the lowland tribes shared, and then replaced it with their own. Then in time along came Christianity. So how is that different from Islam being introduced now?

Well, Christianity is what has made this country into what it is today, if it weren't for the actions of the church throughout the entirely of the dark ages, we could well have lost all of our culture - perhaps leaving us open to domination from nearby cultures in due course. We owe our way of life, our customs, even our spoken language to the actions, virtues and sacrifices made by the Christian church in a by-gone era. They were the light that carried us through the darkness. They got us here, where we are today, and that is an achievement that can never be replaced as history has already been written.
However, where we go from here is entirely up to us.
Would I support our country becoming an Islamic nation? Only if it became certain that such a re-direction was a proven necessity, and to be in the best interest of the nation, our children and for our grandchildren.

[Ramrod]

I'm wondering how many of these plackard waving religious protestors were arrested in London?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Then in time along came Christianity.

You really haven't got a clue about this have you? Were you not aware that Christians burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship and built churches over them?

There is no rules that says a country must have just one religion or faith. There is room for all, including atheism.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Russ B

You really haven't got a clue about this have you? Were you not aware that Christians burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship and built churches over them?

There is no rules that says a country must have just one religion or faith. There is room for all, including atheism.

I said "it could easily be argued", didn't say it was fact.
I can't say everything at once Russ, I'm trying to keep these posts as short as I can
FWIW, I'm well versed with history, its one of my favorite subjects, and yes I know the Romans would systematically destroy indigenous shrines and replace them with their own.

I never said there could be no room for other faiths. But if you think I "haven't got a clue" on the basis of what I had said, and assuming you still think I'm someone else mascarading as Sparkle, perhaps I'll give this thread a miss for a while.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

So given the rise of Islam in the UK, you have no objections to a Muslim taking the same view?

I assumed you meant Muslims coming in and making this a stricly Islamic country (possibly involving restrictions placed upon or elimination of other faiths)

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ B

You really haven't got a clue about this have you? Were you not aware that Christians burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship and built churches over them?

Not to be crude, but I think a closer examination of history will reveal that the Romans burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship - LONG before Christians came along.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Not to be crude, but I think a closer examination of history will reveal that the Romans burned pagans, destroyed their places of worship - LONG before Christians came along.

http://savenatives.blogspot.com/2008...yed-pagan.html

What people are accusing Islam of doing now, Christianity was known for 1500 years ago.

[Sparkle]

Indeed, but you don't even have to look outside of Christianity (or most religions for that matter) to find examples of senseless brutality against their fellow people. Look what Henry's protestant reformation did to the Catholic shrines up and down this nation. Many were persecuted, and died for no reason other than their faith. The common factor here is people, people who are willing to use religion (or whatever else is convenient) to further their own evil, tyrannical ends, and when it fails to serve them further they just find a substitute. Its a shame that all too often religion gets the blame for the worlds evils, when the real problem is us.