Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8149464.stm

Israeli soldiers have described the use of "permissive" rules of engagement that cost civilian lives during the recent military campaign in Gaza.

I wonder how much this will 'noticed' by PTB in Israel or any other large western democracies?

[Julian]

Absolutely NO surprises there then.

And as you say Maggy, don't expect ANY criticism from the Americans .

Americans criticise the israeli's you've got more chance of a double lottery win then that ever happening.

[soicky]

Nothing will be made of this, just another story, more will come and the same happens again and again.

[SMG]

Unfortunatly there are, & always will be occasions where civillians are killed, because they are either in the line of fire, or, used as a shield. A soldiers priority is the preservation of his or her own life, & that of their comrades.Urban tactics, are quite different to open tactics, & any group who uses Urban Warfare as their battleground is comitting its civillian population to extreme danger.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by SMG

Unfortunatly there are, & always will be occasions where civillians are killed, because they are either in the line of fire, or, used as a shield. A soldiers priority is the preservation of his or her own life, & that of their comrades.Urban tactics, are quite different to open tactics, & any group who uses Urban Warfare as their battleground is comitting its civillian population to extreme danger.

Have you actually read the article?

The troops said they had been urged to fire on any building or person that seemed suspicious and said Palestinians were sometimes used as human shields.

The report says testimonies show "the massive and unprecedented blow to the infrastructure and civilians" was a result of Israeli military policy, articulated by the rules of engagement, and encouraged by a belief "the reality of war requires them to shoot and not to ask questions".

One soldier is quoted saying: "The soldiers were made to understand that their lives were the most important, and that there was no way our soldiers would get killed for the sake of leaving civilians the benefit of the doubt."

Another says: "People were not instructed to shoot at everyone they see, but they were told that from a certain distance when they approach a house, no matter who it is - even an old woman - take them down."

Other allegations in the testimonies of the 14 conscripts and 12 reserve soldiers include:

• Civilians were used as human shields, entering buildings ahead of soldiers

• Large swathes of homes and buildings were demolished as a precaution or to secure clear lines of fire for the future.

• Some of the troops had a generally aggressive, ill-disciplined attitude

• There was incidents of vandalism of property of Palestinians

• Soldiers fired at water tanks because they were bored, at a time of severe water shortages for Gazans

• White phosphorus was used in civilian areas in a way some soldiers saw as gratuitous and reckless

• Many of the soldiers said there had been very little direct engagement with Palestinian militants.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by soicky

Have you actually read the article?

Whats your point?

Originally Posted by SMG

Unfortunatly there are, & always will be occasions where civillians are killed, because they are either in the line of fire, or, used as a shield. A soldiers priority is the preservation of his or her own life, & that of their comrades.Urban tactics, are quite different to open tactics, & any group who uses Urban Warfare as their battleground is comitting its civillian population to extreme danger.

Really? This is what you did when you were in the armed forces?This is what you expect from your son?

And to say that they all deserve to have the Geneva convention articles overturned because SOME of the population hide behind their citizens...Frankly I'm appalled if you think this is acceptable behaviour...

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Really? This is what you did when you were in the armed forces?This is what you expect from your son?

And to say that they all deserve to have the Geneva convention articles overturned because SOME of the population hide behind their citizens...Frankly I'm appalled if you think this is acceptable behaviour...

First of all Maggy, that is an unfair reply to my post.

My post began with the word "Unfortunately".

Unfortunately there are, & always will be occasions where civilians are killed, because they are either in the line of fire, or, used as a shield. A soldiers priority is the preservation of his or her own life, & that of their comrades.Urban tactics, are quite different to open tactics, & any group who uses Urban Warfare as their battleground is committing its civilian population to extreme danger.

I made no mention of the Geneva Convention, nor did I say at any time that this was Acceptable behavior. I am simply posting from experience.

Like it or not, what I posted is, "The way it is". Irrespective of the "rights & wrongs" of the situation, thats how it is. All professional Armies adopt the same attitude.

I make any comments based on my knowledge & service, in the British Army. I can not speak for the Israeli Army's "Rules of engagement" during the Gaza conflict. The allegations made are damming, &, if true, need investigating. I certainly believe a conscript army is capable of such behavior, & I condemn it.

I can say that when on street patrol, & you come under fire from a sniper at a bedroom window, you return fire. Not to do so would lead to friendly casualties. What do you do? If you hesitate, your simply a target. If you run, your a moving target. Surrender, and your an easy target.

Or do you fire back, Not knowing if there are civilians in the room? In reality, you don't even have time to think. Your training kicks in & you return fire. Exactly the same in the field, shots ring out, movement ahead, target, you open fire, if you miss your target the round doesn't just stop, it carries on. If there are civvies out of sight your round could easily kill them.

Its easy to sit back, to judge & condemn, its not easy when your, & your mens lives are on the line, & I am defiantly not condoning civilian casualties, I am saying, it happens.

If it was proved that a civilian was targeted, for no reason other than he or she was in the area, then that would be a criminal act, & the full weight of the law should be invoked.

I expect my son (s), & every other service man or woman, to conduct them selfs, with the professionalism expected of a trained British soldier. I expect them to perform their duties in exactly the same way the other services perform theirs, to the best of their ability.

These tactics have been developed over a long time, & until something better comes along, they will remain. Modern urban warfare is quite clean in relation to 60 years ago, when large numbers of civilians were killed indiscriminately.

I do not know anyone who has seen war, say they like it. It is the most horrific, degrading, & shameful experience you can imagine. It shows that people can be the most destructive, evil, & murderous, of all animals.

Warfare is a rotten, dirty job. But someones got to do it.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by SMG

Whats your point?

My points was pretty obvious. Your comment suggest you have not read the article and that is why i asked.

[SMG]

Right. Yes I did read the article. I gave a simple Military assessment of the facts regarding Civilian Casualties, in Urban & Open warfare. Nothing specific to the Gaza conflict.

None of the allegations are proved, so therefore they are just allegations. My answer was to point out that civilian casualties occur in most conflicts. When civvies die, there is, quite reasonably, an outcry, most of the time without full information, or complete knowledge of the incident.

If the allegations are true, then, as I said, they need to be actioned, & the guys arrested. A conscript army will never be as disciplined as a professional one. As the massacres in the Balkans testify to.

Its nothing new, we've heard all this before, every conflict brings out stories like this, & until its proved, it is, as you said, "just another story".

Originally Posted by SMG

First of all Maggy, that is an unfair reply to my post.

My post began with the word "Unfortunately".




I made no mention of the Geneva Convention, nor did I say at any time that this was Acceptable behavior. I am simply posting from experience.

Like it or not, what I posted is, "The way it is". Irrespective of the "rights & wrongs" of the situation, thats how it is. All professional Armies adopt the same attitude.

I make any comments based on my knowledge & service, in the British Army. I can not speak for the Israeli Army's "Rules of engagement" during the Gaza conflict. The allegations made are damming, &, if true, need investigating. I certainly believe a conscript army is capable of such behavior, & I condemn it.

I can say that when on street patrol, & you come under fire from a sniper at a bedroom window, you return fire. Not to do so would lead to friendly casualties. What do you do? If you hesitate, your simply a target. If you run, your a moving target. Surrender, and your an easy target.

Or do you fire back, Not knowing if there are civilians in the room? In reality, you don't even have time to think. Your training kicks in & you return fire. Exactly the same in the field, shots ring out, movement ahead, target, you open fire, if you miss your target the round doesn't just stop, it carries on. If there are civvies out of sight your round could easily kill them.

Its easy to sit back, to judge & condemn, its not easy when your, & your mens lives are on the line, & I am defiantly not condoning civilian casualties, I am saying, it happens.

If it was proved that a civilian was targeted, for no reason other than he or she was in the area, then that would be a criminal act, & the full weight of the law should be invoked.

I expect my son (s), & every other service man or woman, to conduct them selfs, with the professionalism expected of a trained British soldier. I expect them to perform their duties in exactly the same way the other services perform theirs, to the best of their ability.

These tactics have been developed over a long time, & until something better comes along, they will remain. Modern urban warfare is quite clean in relation to 60 years ago, when large numbers of civilians were killed indiscriminately.

I do not know anyone who has seen war, say they like it. It is the most horrific, degrading, & shameful experience you can imagine. It shows that people can be the most destructive, evil, & murderous, of all animals.

Warfare is a rotten, dirty job. But someones got to do it.

Fair enough now you have given a more expanded reply I begin to understand your comments better..your original post seemed to indicate that you thought such tactics were 'acceptable'. I apologise if I misunderstood.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Fair enough now you have given a more expanded reply I begin to understand your comments better..your original post seemed to indicate that you thought such tactics were 'acceptable'. I apologise if I misunderstood.

Thats OK Maggy, I should have explained my point better, instead I can see where I appeared to be condoning this action. In my opinion, Hezbollah created many of the situations deliberately, using civilian locations to fire weapons, I do believe both sides used underhanded tactics during the Gaza conflict.

During WW2, the RAF bombed a school, where many children died, they mistook it for a Gestapo building. The Dutch people forgave us, understanding why the raid was necessary. In the same light, a commando unit destroyed another building, used by the Gestapo for interrogation, knowing they would be deliberately killing innocent civilians.

There are, & have been occasions where it was, & is necessary to kill innocent civilians, in order to complete a mission. Although distasteful & abhorrent to any civilised person, it is, I have been told, a very "personal" feeling, & never discussed between ranks.

Terrorist groups have no feeling or remorse, when it comes to killing innocents. I just hope to God professional soldiers never feel the same.


.

Originally Posted by Maggy J

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8149464.stm



I wonder how much this will 'noticed' by PTB in Israel or any other large western democracies?

It's been like that for the last 10-15 years.

Oh for the days when the two armies marched into a nice area and conducted their battle but sadly that is well and truly gone because for some combatants civvies are very useful. No one likes the death of civilians and though some might doubt it soldiers hate it most but have that realism that it cannot be avoided at times and sometimes that comes across as callous it isn't it is just the experience of having been involved in it at the dirty end and had to do it. Any soldier in any recognised organised army that deliberately targets civilians is not a soldier they are a criminal and thats it and should fall to the complete wrath of any justice system. While i have some sympathy with the position Israel is in that doesn't mean an "anything goes" mindset is acceptable and should never be considered in their planning of operations.