This one's going down

But again, the point is the pension, not the sentence.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Chris, people go to prison a lot longer for dealing drugs. all he had to do was do his job properly, an error of judgement isn't good enough when there's many people being prosecuted/fined/imprisoned everyday for what was an error of judgement on their part.

At the end of the day he is just another person who broke the law and paid the price. the fact that he was a "copper" makes some people think that he should be let off because he was doing his job.

his job wasn't to endanger lives, and it certainly wasn't to kill somebody as a result of doing his job wrong.

I absolutely agree with you. I don't think he should be let off. My complaint this evening isn't that he got caught, convicted and sentenced. My complaint is that for some people the judicial process just isn't enough. Some people want to see offenders persecuted for the rest of their lives. That is not how a mature society works. I thank God that I don't live in a country like that, and it sickens me that some people really do seem to want to drag us back to the middle ages in that respect.

[xpod]

I see the self righteous brigade are out in force as usual this evening.

Assuming that was directed at me i`ll try my best to make it clear to you,even though i`m far from being a member of any brigades that may indeed habit CF.

It makes me sick how little sense some people have of proportionality

Your quite right.......what he did was way out of proportion.

It's oh, so easy to wave a picth fork and demand people be flogged and dragged through the streets on the back of a cart isn't it.

It`s even easier when you`ve experienced & witnessed the disproportionate actions of your local plods,bent or otherwise.
Their(ok some are) a bigger gang of hoodlums than the so-called criminals themselves at times.

Nevertheless, I can't help wondering what secret inadequacies they are ashamed of, that they feel the need to shout so loudly and point at other people.

It`s none of my own inadequacies that made me shout so loudly but the thought of it being one of my own 4 girls and the fact that some think it can be brushed off as an accident.

This ex-copper made a stupid error of judgement

An "error of judgement" ??An error of judgement my backside!It was most probably quite a common thing he did ...until he killed the young lass.
I wonder what other "errors" he was happy to make along the way.

. Possibly he was arrogant as hell along with it. Well, he will go to jail, for three years - a length of time determined by someone who is professionally qualified to make that decision. And when he gets out he will have to start a new career from scratch, with whoever will have him. What possible justice would be served if, 20-odd years from now, he is denied whatever pension he has worked for and is forced into relative poverty? That's not justice, it's petty, small minded, vindictiveness. Shame, shame, shame on all of you.

Just "Possibly" arrogant as hell.....well,not tonight he`s not eh.
Walked in there like John Wayne but i`ll bet he`s whimpering like a big wean tonight?Shame on him and shame on anyone else questioning the "justice" of it because of his poor career & his relative poverty?
Wheres the justice for the dead person?

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by xpod

Shame on him and shame on anyone else questioning the "justice" of it because of his poor career & his relative poverty?
Wheres the justice for the dead person?

Have to agree with this. whether he was a copper/colleague or not. where is the justice for Hayley. some people are too bothered about how John will suffer from her dying.

Originally Posted by xpod

Assuming that was directed at me i`ll try my best to make it clear to you,even though i`m far from being a member of any brigades that may indeed habit CF.

Actually my comments were directed at a mindset, rather than any particular individual. I hadn't even read any of your recent posts in this thread. However, seeing as you identified yourself with what I posted, let's talk about it.

Your quite right.......what he did was way out of proportion.

We're off to a poor start here. As you are well aware, my comments about proportionality were aimed at those who want to take the copper's pension
away, they were not a comment on the actions of the copper in question. I truly believe it's possible for two people with opposing views to have a sensible, meaningful discussion about this subject, but indulging in word games isn't the way to go about it.

It`s even easier when you`ve experienced & witnessed the disproportionate actions of your local plods,bent or otherwise.
Their(ok some are) a bigger gang of hoodlums than the so-called criminals themselves at times.

I'm glad you thought to accept that there are some coppers who aren't disproportionate hoodlums. Regardless, the actions of other police officers are entirely irrelevant in this case. I'm sure, if you consider it rationally, you will agree that the copper who is the subject of this thread is guilty only of his own crimes and not those of (some of) his fellow officers.

It`s none of my own inadequacies that made me shout so loudly but the thought of it being one of my own 4 girls and the fact that some think it can be brushed off as an accident.

Some may think that, but I don't, and seeing as you said you were replying to me, I'm tempted to suggest you're deviating into irrelevant comment again.

Also there's not much point in telling me how many kids you have - it doesn't make you any more qualified to judge the copper who killed the girl. As it happens I have three kids, and I can't imagine how I'd react if he had harmed one of them. But the fact is, he didn't kill one of mine, or one of yours. The judge who sentenced him will have considered the impact on the girl's family as *part* of the overall picture before sentencing.

An "error of judgement" ??An error of judgement my backside.It was most probably quite a common thing he did ...until he killed the young lass.
I wonder what other "errors" he was happy to make along the way.

'Most probably', based on what evidence? Something from the trial we've missed? This is insinuation and speculation.

Just "Possibly" arrogant as hell.....well,not tonight he`s not eh.
Walked in their like John Wayne but i`ll bet he`s whimpering like a big wean tonight?Shame on him and shame on anyone else questioning the "justice" of it because of his poor career & his relative poverty?
Wheres the justice for the dead person?

Now you're just ranting. I hope it gives you whatever it is you feel you need. I'm also very thankful you're not a Crown Court Judge.

---------- Post added at 00:30 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

Have to agree with this. whether he was a copper/colleague or not. where is the justice for Hayley. some people are too bothered about how John will suffer from her dying.

The man whose gross stupidity caused her death is, tonight, serving a jail term for it. There is the justice. If you're trying to make a comment about the length of that sentence, then I politely refer you to the comments I made earlier about proportionality.

[xpod]

I hadn't even read any of your recent posts in this thread. However, seeing as you identified yourself with what I posted, let's talk about it..

Theres a reason for that.There are none.
Crap deflection all the same though.

let's talk about it

Lets not.
I`m only still awake at this time trying to get the wee one off to sleep and thats finally mission achieved.

Mabey tomorrow ok.
Let`s get some sleep,those of us who can.

Originally Posted by Chris

I see the self righteous brigade are out in force as usual this evening. It makes me sick how little sense some people have of proportionality. It's oh, so easy to wave a picth fork and demand people be flogged and dragged through the streets on the back of a cart isn't it. There once was a time when we hanged people for petty theft and I have no doubt there are some members of this forum who would love us to go back to those days. Nevertheless, I can't help wondering what secret inadequacies they are ashamed of, that they feel the need to shout so loudly and point at other people.

This ex-copper made a stupid error of judgement. Possibly he was arrogant as hell along with it. Well, he will go to jail, for three years - a length of time determined by someone who is professionally qualified to make that decision. And when he gets out he will have to start a new career from scratch, with whoever will have him. What possible justice would be served if, 20-odd years from now, he is denied whatever pension he has worked for and is forced into relative poverty? That's not justice, it's petty, small minded, vindictiveness. Shame, shame, shame on all of you.

Dude do you realise how righteous you come across at times?

He killed someone. That someones family has to live with what he has done. His pension contributions could perhaps be given to her family as some sort of compensation for the loss they have suffered. Possible including funeral expenses??

Awww what a shame he will have to find a new career. I find it amazing that on countless occassions people like you empathizes with the perpetrator rather than the victim shame shame on you

---------- Post added at 09:07 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek S

He has been convicted in a court of law so yes he is a criminal. 1 Whether I think he should of been convicted is another matter.

2 There is also a big difference between negligence and intentional acts.



Are you comparing someone who repeatedly sexually assaulted women, when on duty and in uniform, to someone who accidentally killed someone?

I'd much rather have John Dougal patrolling the streets than Dean Stewart.

Some of the 'highlights' of his case

1 Thank God its not upto you then. You make it sound like you would have let this guy walk that sickens me.

2 He intentionally chased the car at ridiculously high speeds and someone died. He made a choice on what to do so thats intent

[Raistlin]

Actually, the intent was to chase the car and not to kill the girl. It was the negligent way that he went about doing it that resulted in her death as I understand it

He still intended to drive the car very fast without any warning so there is intent there. If his foot slipped or the accelerator stuck or his brakes failed it would have been an accident.

Some people seem to care so little about the loss of life and more about the rights of the person who took that life. The girl died because of this mans action not because this man had an accident

[Raistlin]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

He still intended to drive the car very fast without any warning so there is intent there.

Yep, there was intent, but the intent was to 'drive the car very fast without any warning' - I doubt very much he got into that car intendind to kill anybody.

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

Some people seem to care so little about the loss of life and more about the rights of the person who took that life. The girl died because of this mans action not because this man had an accident

His actions were negligent, and directly caused the sad loss of a life - you'll get no arguments from me there.

so he deserves what he gets. Its a message to the police that they are accountable for their actions. No one told him to chase the car ,no one told him to travel over 90 without warnings. I hope a lesson is learnt. Although if the police are all like Derek it looks sadly like a lesson may not be learnt as they are to busy feeling sorry for him or worried about their own positions. This guy took a job to protect the innocents well he did a good job of that didnt he

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Chris

The man whose gross stupidity caused her death is, tonight, serving a jail term for it. There is the justice. If you're trying to make a comment about the length of that sentence, then I politely refer you to the comments I made earlier about proportionality.

I'm not trying to make any comment about the length of time given. infact nobody has mentioned whether it's too long or too short. I think the main thing is that he got locked up and didn't get away with it to a lot of people.

Somebody lost a daughter, a sister, a girlfriend, a grand daughter, and we're arguing about whether there's a possibility that he might have to claim a state pension like a lot of other people do, and be in poverty, other than a private pension later in his life.

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

Dude do you realise how righteous you come across at times?

Not a clue.

He killed someone.

I know.

That someones family has to live with what he has done.

I know.

His pension contributions could perhaps be given to her family as some sort of compensation for the loss they have suffered. Possible including funeral expenses??

Ah, here we go. He has done incalculable evil, he deserves what he gets, a poor girl's life is lost forever, her family will hurt for the rest of their lives, etc etc etc ... but giving them some money will be 'some sort of compensation'. Compensation, how exactly? Will the money replace the girl? Or will knowing they have deprived him of it make them feel better? That's the sort of petty vindictiveness I was talking about earlier.

Awww what a shame he will have to find a new career. I find it amazing that on countless occassions people like you empathizes with the perpetrator rather than the victim shame shame on you

I am unashamed. Nor are those who have campaigned for prison reforms, or legislation like the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, which establishes that it is right and proper for someone to serve a sentence for their crime and then be able to start over without getting persecuted for the rest of their life.

Like it or loathe it, we don't live in the sort of country you seem to want to live in. If you really do want that sort of draconian, pre-Victorian criminal justice system, judging from the things you've said here, then you could emigrate to one of the wonderful middle eastern countries where they still practice it. And while you're there, hope and pray that you don't commit the kind of reckless, one-off act of stupidity that lands you in a cesspool of a prison for the rest of your life.

and so you prove my point about yourself being righteous . Didnt take long Chris

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

and so you prove my point about yourself being righteous . Didnt take long Chris

In your own head perhaps. For the benefit of those of us who aren't telepathic, could you spell it out please?

By the way, I think the phrase you're looking for is 'self righteous', which is a criticism. Simply calling someone 'righteous' is quite a nice compliment. I don't expect you were trying to offer a compliment.