The existence of God

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...

and what original question was that? please ask me and I will endevour to answer you.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I've every right to give my opinions in this or any other thread..as forcefully as I care to provided I'm not rude or abusive...

shame that doesn't appear to apply to everyone at times, in my personal opinion. how come my right to ask about religion seems to be a major issue that is fought off and stubbed out? where are my rights here? I just want to hear what others have to say about this particular story and the questions it poses. but I suppose now the thread will just get closed, because someone doesn't like the questions being asked.

please can we get back on topic.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Bender

please can we get back on topic.

Was going to say the same thing.

If you want those questions answered, you'll find what you're looking for, and more, here.

Originally Posted by Bender

....snipetty snip snip...

please can we get back on topic.

Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod!


(posting in bold..... )

Originally Posted by Bender

and what original question was that? please ask me and I will endevour to answer you.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------



shame that doesn't appear to apply to everyone at times, in my personal opinion. how come my right to ask about religion seems to be a major issue that is fought off and stubbed out? where are my rights here? I just want to hear what others have to say about this particular story and the questions it poses. but I suppose now the thread will just get closed, because someone doesn't like the questions being asked.

please can we get back on topic.

Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?

Carry on..Just remember that Russ and Chris have been asked this type of question many times before and in every format possible which I'm perfectly sure you are are aware of as a long time member of this site.

It might be nice if the usual suspects could forbear from sidewise sniping at them because they are people of faith and just accept them as they are...

And I will cease to get fired up on their behalf...

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Bender

ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.

hmm well it depends on whether you have a bit of time on your hands ow i answer

but short version

some one challenged god right to rule and another couldnt keep to a simple rule

that started the problems we have

then some one challenged no one would follow god if they had free will

now this could be answered in two ways

1 being all powerful he could get rid of all those questioning his will

or

2 he could see if those given free will would follow him

the later from what my religion teaches was the choice

later

some person said the only reason some follow you is because you look after them

this led to another of those choices leave things as they were or see if those with free will would follow no mater what

so the challenge was accepted man was left to follow god if he wished with no help

while mankind was allowed to try and govern themselves until the end of this test and make thier own choices over who to follow

those who don't believe in a god will say if there was a god there would be no suffering but then there would be no free will

who would choose to suffer while everything was provided by god ?

nothing is foreordained the choices are ours god doesnt call people life just happens based on our choices good or bad for the time being

just to point out before the committed scientist go for me ( got my tin hat already )

my religion accepts the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years old that dinosaurs existed that it took more than 6 literal days to make the earth and what is now in it

and i am all for natural selection !

i am just running by the main points that my religion believes in as a answer to why pain and suffering still exist

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod!


(posting in bold..... )

is bold another rule only applicable to some now?

Smiley alert.......

[mischievious]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod!


(posting in bold..... )

pre-emptive strike I'd say

For myself I have family whom are deeply religious and can only explain in terms that escape me.... You either have faith or you don't and you can't feign faith.

I believe that generally you are either brought up to believe or a life changing event encourages a spark of belief which grows into something bigger like the love for a friend.

Maybe I'll never understand but for myself and others like myself I'd like to.

The best understanding that I can come to is to liken the faith that a religious person has to the faith a child might have that their mum will pick them up from pre-school every day.

[idi banashapan]

@ rogermevans

sorry, i mean:

@ rogermevans

thank you. at least someone has the decency and integrity to post something that actually tries to explain rather than exterminate. as I say, I am not a religious person to the extent that I follow a church or 'God' as such. please forgive my ignorance, it is not intentional. what you say is very interesting, and indeed answers and puts forward more questions.

I would read that as saying, to an extent, that those who chose to follow God would not be sufferers of disease and famine (and other such nasties), yet obviosuly we know they do. if these people choose to follow God, why are they not exempt from these things?

and I agree life does just happen. we make our own paths, but do they all end in the same outcomes? (and I'm not talking about being 6 feet under!)

also, when does this test end? what is the sign that says the test is over?

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------

Originally Posted by mischievious

The best understanding that I can come to is to liken the faith that a religious person has to the faith a child might have that their mum will pick them up from pre-school every day.

"mother is the word for 'God' on the lips and hearts of all children" ~the crow

Originally Posted by Bender

I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?

The painting's done. Now, let me see if I can address a couple of the points here.

First thing to say about this is that the story is offered as a simple illustration of a single point, rather than as a complete exploration of the entirety of Christian theology. It's like a parable, the sort of story Jesus used to use to illustrate his sermons. The key to understanding these sorts of things is not to try to load symbolic meaning onto elements of the story that weren't intended to carry it, but are simply there to make the story possible.

You're right, if the barber was God he would have had a different perspective. But that's not necessary for the story to function. The simple point of the story is to say that suffering in the world is due to humankind's unwillingness for it to be dealt with according to God's expertise, even though that expertise is available.

The tramp in this story is more akin to the race as a whole, rather than any individual person. While there are people in the world who don't submit to God, there will always be those who seek to aggrandise themselves at the expense of others, and hence there will always be suffering.

Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?

Your first statement assumes that conceptually, there can only be a God if he (she/it if you like) acts the way you think he should. Your second statement accepts as a given the Christian beliefs about God's loving and forgiving nature whilst at the same time ignoring the Christian beliefs about his just nature. If you indulge in pick'n'mix theology you're bound to end up with some strange flavour combinations.

How am I doing so far?

[idi banashapan]

you're doing well - thought provoking and well explained. I think it's becoming clear that my questions are simply down to my own naivety in regards to religion. you're quite right that pick'n'mix does lead to a hash of flavours. perhaps religion is something that should not be taken in a literal sense.

I just find it difficult to understand how faith drives people. I've heard people say "if i follow God and there isn't one at the end of it, I've not really lost anything. If i follow God and there is one, I gain everything.", but I'm not so sure. religion (how should I say this?) 'encourages' people to live their lives in a certain way - according to certain rules. social morals are built around these rules and those who go against them could end up in jail. for example, were society not to frown upon hurting another physically who had done harm to either yourself or family member / friend, I'm sure there would be a lot more injured people out there!

So this makes me wonder if religion was really a way of dressing up a set of rules and then placing the onus on the individual with the fear that if they did not follow these rules, God would not accept them. something which we obviously cannot prove either way. As our scientific understanding of the world progresses, we have far fewer 'miracles' as we know how things work a lot better. this onbviously leads society to lose it's faith in religion as those things the churches used to make people believe are explained away one by one.

so where does this leave society and the church. is there actually a benefit from devoting or not? and why do so many people stll believe God exists when we now have answers to so many 'miracles'?

On the flip side, would you agree that faith has been lost due to our advancement as a race and could it eventually decline to a point that religion is merely a cult establishment? what effect would this have on the way we govern ourselves in respect to laws and morals?

[mischievious]

Originally Posted by Chris

The painting's done.

......

How am I doing so far?

First hows the painting look, this time of night and not so good light you might find bits you've missed tomorrow in daylight

As to the other bit very well, comes accross like you have patiently (avoiding bold) explained this countless times and will do countless more times

You paint the concept of god in a very human like manner, e.g. with many qualities, one of which is forgiveness but there are many other facets.

why is God presented with human like qualities....

Though I find this interesting and as a logical, rational and physical being the simplest solution seems to be a religious person has faith that god exists (In whatever form) whilst a non believer should simply claim faith that a god does not exist. It is all a mad accident of atoms and molecules over countless years. Then we just have to accept each other.

For those on the fence, I believe that most religious circles subscribe to the idea that it is never too late to find god, if that is on your deathbed then so be it.

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Bender

@ rogermevans

sorry, i mean:

@ rogermevans

thank you. at least someone has the decency and integrity to post something that actually tries to explain rather than exterminate. as I say, I am not a religious person to the extent that I follow a church or 'God' as such. please forgive my ignorance, it is not intentional. what you say is very interesting, and indeed answers and puts forward more questions.

I would read that as saying, to an extent, that those who chose to follow God would not be sufferers of disease and famine (and other such nasties), yet obviosuly we know they do. if these people choose to follow God, why are they not exempt from these things?

and I agree life does just happen. we make our own paths, but do they all end in the same outcomes? (and I'm not talking about being 6 feet under!)

also, when does this test end? what is the sign that says the test is over?

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------



"mother is the word for 'God' on the lips and hearts of all children" ~the crow

the end of the test is at an appointed time that know one but god knows for the same reason of the no extra help in that if a time was know those who believed but didn't want to follow the rules set down for believers could do as they wished until just before the appointed time then jump back into the fold just in time ( hardly fair lol )

though the period it would come in is foretold at mathew 24 though many would say that the signs there could be put as have happened many times in the past we beive that they are being fulfilled now but that doesnt mean its in going to happen soon

as to those following god not suffering we don't see it that way though we would say that our way may lead to a happier life even now , we do not claim that it is because god is helping us other than by the instructions we follow ,or making things easier for us now other than we tend to try to avoid situations that could cause us problems but that is still our choice not intervention from above

quote
Ecclesiastes 9:11

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.
unquote

Originally Posted by Bender

I just find it difficult to understand how faith drives people. I've heard people say "if i follow God and there isn't one at the end of it, I've not really lost anything. If i follow God and there is one, I gain everything.", but I'm not so sure.

Nor am I, on that basis. What you're describing there isn't really faith, it's fire insurance. The Christian life is one of commitment, discipleship, submission, worship and relationship. You can't have any of those things to any meaninful degree if all you're doing is hedging against the possibility of an afterlife.

religion (how should I say this?) 'encourages' people to live their lives in a certain way - according to certain rules. social morals are built around these rules and those who go against them could end up in jail. for example, were society not to frown upon hurting another physically who had done harm to either yourself or family member / friend, I'm sure there would be a lot more injured people out there!

Quite true. God, through both Moses in the Old Testament and through Jesus in the New, has made clear the rules he expects his people to live by, for the best interests of all. But that's not the full extent of what he has said; it's only part of it.

So this makes me wonder if religion was really a way of dressing up a set of rules and then placing the onus on the individual with the fear that if they did not follow these rules, God would not accept them. something which we obviously cannot prove either way.

It's a tempting conclusion, but one that doesn't stack up because of all the inconvenient things the Bible has to say about the servant nature a true leader is supposed to have. Any self-respecting despot, who wanted a religion created for him to help him control the masses, would have had the priests put to the sword and then employed others to come up with better rules that didn't require quite so much selfless living and personal sacrifice. Actually, that happened, throughout Bible history. And yet, somehow, we still have the Bible, in all its inconvenient glory.

As our scientific understanding of the world progresses, we have far fewer 'miracles' as we know how things work a lot better. this onbviously leads society to lose it's faith in religion as those things the churches used to make people believe are explained away one by one.

I think it depends on what you define as a miracle. The Bible never calls the stars or the seasons, or the sun coming up in the morning, a miracle, although its writers acknowledged they were mysteries of God that they didn't understand.

But medical science even today would have a hard time explaining any of the healings or raisings-from-the-dead that are attributed to Jesus.

so where does this leave society and the church. is there actually a benefit from devoting or not? and why do so many people stll believe God exists when we now have answers to so many 'miracles'?

Well, you can buy a Haynes manual for your car, but if it stirs anything in you (other than a desire to take your car to bits), it's surely more likely to be appreciation for the work of the designer of the car, rather than an insistence that the designer doesn't exist.

On the flip side, would you agree that faith has been lost due to our advancement as a race and could it eventually decline to a point that religion is merely a cult establishment? what effect would this have on the way we govern ourselves in respect to laws and morals?

No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue. Atheism, or various kinds of agnostcism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.

Originally Posted by mischievious

First hows the painting look, this time of night and not so good light you might find bits you've missed tomorrow in daylight

Don't worry, it's just a basecoat for a porous wall. There's two layers of wallpaper and more paint to come yet.

As to the other bit very well, comes accross like you have patiently (avoiding bold) explained this countless times and will do countless more times

Thank you ... you're right, I have, and I certainly will ...

You paint the concept of god in a very human like manner, e.g. with many qualities, one of which is forgiveness but there are many other facets.

why is God presented with human like qualities....

It makes him easier to get to grips with, I suppose. That's not the whole picture of course. If you want that you'll have to come to church and listen to me going at it from the pulpit for a great many weeks.

Though I find this interesting and as a logical, rational and physical being the simplest solution seems to be a religious person has faith that god exists (In whatever form) whilst a non believer should simply claim faith that a god does not exist. It is all a mad accident of atoms and molecules over countless years. Then we just have to accept each other.

Such was the thesis being explored in Contact, although Carl Sagan was himself an avowed agnostic of the fence-sitting kind.

For those on the fence, I believe that most religious circles subscribe to the idea that it is never too late to find god, if that is on your deathbed then so be it.

Christianity certainly holds to this idea.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by chris

No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue. Atheism, or various kinds of agnosticism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.

Just picking up on this point: I'd say that that the situation in the UK is pretty much the norm for the Western world (with the US being a bit of an exception). It would be stretching the truth to say that the UK is an exception in the Western world.