Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Frank

There was a ceasefire. Israel did not adhere to the terms, specifically to open the border to allow humanitarian aid in so Gaza was no longer like a concentration camp. Israel also broke the ceasefire.

Regime change? They already had a democratic election, and Hamas was elected. Hamas "militants" are the army of the democratically elected government. Hamas police are the police force of the democratially elected government. The only regime that needs changing is the unelected, puppet "government" of Abbas and Fatah, who stand idly by while Israel expands settlements in the West Bank in violation of more UN Resolutions.

Well that assumes that Hamas broke the ceasefire, which they did not. Perhaps you can explain to me how Hamas is putting their citizens in harms way when the borders of Gaza, a DENSELY populated area, are sealed and the people have nowhere to go and it is Israel that is killing people. Over 1100 of them now.

You could not be more wrong and could not be more brainwashed. Hamas is a terrorist group because...the western media says so? It's pretty clear to me who is causing the most terror right now - a disproportionate amount of force (the terror option) in violation of multiple international laws and UN resolutions (the political option).

I would suggest to you that this conflict is more about crushing democratically elected Hamas because they are not sympathetic to the US/UK/Israel empire-building strategy that is currently being executed in the middle east (Afganistan, Iraq, even Kuwait). Once Hamas is crushed, Fatah will conveniently take power, and of course they are sympathetic to U.S interests.

Perhaps you might be persuaded to think outside the mainstream media message box for 5 mins: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7928


How many civilians do you think it is acceptable to kill to gain geopolitical power?

You do have a short memory. Lebanon was flattened.

Erm no. Hamas is using the deaths of Palestinians as propoganda? You seem to have everything back to front. It is Israel that is engaging in an information war, shelling the buildings of journalists already in the Gaza strip, lying about the use of white phosporus, and censoring any other journalists by blocking their entrance. Egypt, of course, sadly is participating. Hell, the Israeli consulate in New York even launched a PR campaign on Twitter to spread more propaganda. Perhaps its time for you to broaden the scope of outlets that you get information from.

Geez, glad we agree on something.

Hey, Frank, If you dont like my post, tuff. I gave my opinion, & thats all. No, I'm not brainwashed, but clearly you are, believing all that crap you posted. Are these your opinions or facts? If they are facts, provide the links.

Step down off the bandwagon & try to see to whole picture, instead of the one in the tunnel. Your post is not biased is it!

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Chris

The legitimate government of Gaza is holed up in the West Bank, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas. Like him or loathe him, he's the man.

Hmm well I think that is debateable tbh. The previous leader of Fatah, Arafat, died in suspicious circumstances, confined to a compound by the Israelis, which made way for a Presidential election.

After the parliamentary elections you refer to, Fatah resigned all cabinet positions and assumed the role of the official opposition. So Abbas may technically be the President for 4 years if you can call the election democratic, although of course any Palestinians living as refugees and exiles outside the territories (from which they did not have free movement) were barred from the election.

In light of that, I would argue that the legitimate government is not holed up in the West Bank. The majority of people voted for Hamas, and Fatah resigned their cabinet positions. Plus the US administration funded and armed Abbas's Presidential Guard and Gaza based Fatah warlord, Mohammed Dahlan, to try and undermine Hamas and their election because it was not in the U.S interest.

Abbas is a U.S. puppet and Hamas has the majority in the legislative assembly, simple as that. Not that Hamas is blameless, to be fair. But Fatah is hardly the legitimate government.

---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------

Originally Posted by SMG

Hey, Frank, If you dont like my post, tuff. I gave my opinion, & thats all. No, I'm not brainwashed, but clearly you are, believing all that crap you posted. Are these your opinions or facts? If they are facts, provide the links.

Step down off the bandwagon & try to see to whole picture, instead of the one in the tunnel. Your post is not biased is it!

That is one of the weakest rebuttals ever. State, what point do you disagree with and provide a logical argument as to why, and I will happily clarify my argument with links. My post is biased...because you disagree? I am not Palestinian or Israeli, so it is stupid to claim my post is biased.

If you are referring the ceasefire, you can (ironically) see the CNN factcheck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

[ntluser]

I don't think it really matters which party is in charge. What matters is how they are going to find a peaceful solution to the differences between the Palestinians and Israel.

The Middle East has traditionally been a volatile, political region and I think everyone concerned wishes that differences could be resolved sufficiently for it to become a stable, peaceful area.

In this conflict, both sides have wasted vast amounts of money and resources in the war effort, which could have been put to more profitable use building a thriving economy, social facilities and safer environments for all. Instead they will have to allocate yet more resources to repairing the damage from this conflict but unfortunately,you can't bring the dead back to life and even with our advanced medical knowledge there are some injuries that just cannot be repaired. Nor can you easily eradicate the bitterness and hatred in Palestinian-Israeli relations.

The first step is to get the ceasefire, but after that Fatah , Hamas and Israel need to resolve their differences and jointly create a plan for Palestine that they can all accept and live with peacefully as the current arrangements are clearly not working.

[papa smurf]

just on bbc news -the UN is accusing israel of war crimes over school bombing

sorry cant find a link

Seen the footage papa.
America should be ashamed of its backing for Israel, but its of no surprise to me.
The whole thing is a sorry episode that will never be sorted, and certainly not by america backing Israel.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

just on bbc news -the UN is accusing israel of war crimes over school bombing

sorry cant find a link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834255.stm

Another UN school hot by Israel.

Seems there could be a truce coming soon, just about time when Bush leaves and Barrack Obama enters the scene.

[TheDaddy]

Anyone hear Gerald Kaufman's Common's speech the other day

SIR Gerald Kaufman, the veteran Labour MP, yesterday compared the actions of Israeli troops in Gaza to the Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

During a Commons debate on the fighting in Gaza, he urged the government to impose an arms embargo on Israel.

Sir Gerald, who was brought up as an orthodox Jew and Zionist, said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town a German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

He said the claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants "was the reply of the Nazi" and added: "I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."

He accused the Israeli government of seeking "conquest" and added:

"They are not simply war criminals, they are fools."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...a_to_nazis.php

[Ramrod]

Just found this:

Israeli media reports that Hamas took over the first floor of the building that the BBC offices in Gaza last night and fired rockets from there, trapping the journalists above. Despite the fact that their reporters have now escaped the building, the BBC has so far not said anything about this.

link
......perhaps someone can find a better link?

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004

Seen the footage papa.
America should be ashamed of its backing for Israel, but its of no surprise to me.
The whole thing is a sorry episode that will never be sorted, and certainly not by america backing Israel.

The conflict has been fueled by the nations providing support on both sides.

Gaza has become the battlefield where America and the Arab Nations use their influence and support to vie for control of Palestine and the Middle East.

As a result, the Palestinians and Israelis have never really addressed the Palestine issue but have spent a lot of time and lives fighting over it.

Palestine is and always has been a chessboard for bigger players then either the Israeli's or the Palestinian's and always will be thats why no solution is going to happen soon because even if both sides in direct conflict could come to an agreement the others playing games don't seem interested as long as it isn't their lives that are being lost.

As for all this talk of the "effective" Israeli blockade come on it's that effective that hamas has a large amount of rockets to fire so if they can get weapons in they could easily get more food and humanitarian supplies in they simply choose to get weapons instead. We have numerous people on here constantly telling other members to look at both sides while constantly supporting one and bashing the other they are both to blame to a degree and both of them are not to blame for the reason above so a little more even handedness on here would be a start.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Frank

That is one of the weakest rebuttals ever.

I didn't relay want to rebut your claims, because your posts are totally one sided. I see no reason to debate a subject with someone, who has a closed mind. I dont relay get involved with politics. Like everyone else on here, I know very little about this situation.

This post, & the post I made earlier was a personal view, based on my experience as a soldier, & a guy who`s sick & tired of conflict. One of the reasons this conflict is not easily resolvable is because no one will let the past go. They, like you, prefer to wallow in the past, & drag up as much crap as they can to bolster their arguments.

Both sides believe they are right, & no one will actually listen to the other without arguing the toss. Their time would be better spent trying to find a solution to the problem, than to keep dragging up the past.

I asked peeps not to question me regarding "Acceptable civilian casualties". You did. There is no answer. It depends on so many variables, & the importance of the task. I am not a military planner. However, there are, & have been, tasks where civilian casualties are acceptable. Army officers also have the power to deploy their own men, in situations where death is certain.

Every Officers duty is to his soldiers, & the task in hand. There is nothing more important to them, than a successful mission. This conflict is not solely about the Gaza. The world is dividing, countries are taking sides. The repercussions of this conflict are global. Personally, I want it to stop, right now. But as long as there are flag wavers & soapbox merchants, I cant see it happening.

Everyone who has served in the military knows damn well in any operational planning there is a figure of acceptable civilian casualties and always has been only thing that differs is the amount pending on the army\regime planning the offensive action.

SMG was making a valid point and wasn't saying he agreed there should be civilian casualties but that it is an inevitable result of any nation conducting offensive operations.

We all want this to end sooner rather then later but as people posting on a forum what we may or may not want is neither here nor there and certainly isn't going to influence anyone or anything one iota so perhaps we can all remember this is a debate and have less of the personal attacks as most of us live in the UK where we are free to have whatever opinions or views we wish no matter how wrong or misguided they may seem to others. If one member really annoys you too much with their view\opinion then you use the ignore feature and problem is solved.

[BBKing]

where America and the Arab Nations

What, not Iran?

The Israelis have lost this one, by the way, just as in 2006. Ceasing fire and withdrawing while Hamas are still around and capable of firing rockets is not what was intended at the beginning. Israel's part-time armed forces put a huge strain on the economy, which being run on Western neo-liberal lines these days, is hardly going to be able to take prolonged mobilisation of their best people plus worldwide recession. The Gazans, who aren't in a position to worry about global recessions, will multiply like rabbits as usual and we'll be back to square one, but with a new breed of Hamas leader even nastier than the last lot, and with firm support.

Cue the Israeli propaganda machine. If you see a chap called Mark Regev anywhere, he's lying. Even if he tells you the sky is blue, get a second opinion.

Also, every time Israel do this, they lose a little bit more support in the world. Watch the Turks.

[SMG]

Ceasefire announced. Israel has called a ceasefire. Lets see if Hamas want peace or not.

[BBKing]

They won*, so by definition they have what they want.

* If you start a war to achieve a particular political goal and don't achieve it, the other guy won, no matter how many men he lost.