50Mbit Service Upstream Discussion

[Ignitionnet]

Just posted the below on the newsgroup virginmedia.feedback - I'd welcome the same from the good people here! Please do consider this was addressed to VM's people:

---Too Long Don't Read Begins---

I know that the 50Mbit so far isn't exactly flying off the shelves.

I have spoken with a few people on this both on and offline. A recurring theme is that 50Mbit is all well and good, but 1.5Mbit upload isn't enough to back up that 50Mbit.

Selling a service for multitasking, etc, and giving it an upload rate like that really isn't working for the kind of people I speak to.

Right now the service is a genitalia enlarger with no practical applications over the 20Mbit service at all. There is nothing that can be done with 50Mbit that can't with 20.

This would change with a 5Mbit upload on the 50Mbit service, it would immediately provide a differential.

Anyways this is the feedback newsgroup and that's my feedback - I may purchase it anyway simply because I won't be paying for it, for me it's expensible, but I see very little that justifies 50/1.5 over 20/768k and a vague promise of higher upload, accompanied by possible shaping or throttling isn't really a turn-on to people.

Dealing with your advetising from the website directly:

Regarding HD movies, your own FAQs quote this:

'an HD movie at 5GB (e.g. HD movies from Xbox Live marketplace)'

I can already download with my 20Mbit service at more than enough to cope with smooth streaming of H.264 / MP4 HD with 10Mbit to spare, so what?

Gaming - your advertising is nonsense. There is no game that uses enough upstream to stress 768kbps upstream and 1.5Mbit will not give better latency, its' only use is for hosting of games, and it will not improve the experience of the hoster in any event.

Sharing the connection - Well it won't make much difference to that either, I can have 3 PCs running here, 2 of them gaming and 1 browsing with no issues at all. Even when 1 machine is downloading at full line rate the others are ok. The only issue might be where 1 machine is running a P2P app, so have to cap its' upstream. The 50Mbit doesn't really offer much beyond a higher upstream cap that will be needed, let the P2P app run unfettered and it'll smack the connection in the face same as the 20/768k.

The 50Mbit is also even more asymmetrical than my 20Mbit, it's likely that someone downloading at full speed would cause problems with responsiveness in both directions as they would be loading up most of the upstream as well as the downstream, which doesn't happen on the 20Mbit as there's more left.

Downloading - Sure it'll run faster, however the average VM customer apparently uses 9GB a month, so 50Mbit will save them a little over an hour over the course of a month, assuming of course that all websites and downloads are at 50Mbit speeds, which most will not be. Web browsing will not really be affected by this and it tends to be subject to delays due to the chattiness of HTTP, latency and time taken to deal with requests on the server side.

Would be good to see a service that offers new things and kicks off the internet revolution rather than a PR revolution of having the biggest front line number. At least increasing the upload along with the download would:

Allow more multitasking - someone could host a game with 16+ players on it, or P2P at 4Mbit upstream without in any way affecting others using the connection.

Downloads at full speed would not stress the upstream part of the connection, allowing for true multitasking in both directions.

Allow customers to not only download content from the Internet dramatically faster, but also upload it dramatically faster - the difference between sending those pictures, that youtube video, those files to someone else at 5Mbit instead of 768kbit is much more noteable than occasionally downloading at 50Mbit instead of 20Mbit.

It could also be mercilessly spun by the PR people. Virgin the ISP for those who love social networking, tell the world what you're up to, video conference with confidence, etc, etc, etc.

IMHO there is more of a market, and more of a case for 5Mbit upstream broadband than there is for 50Mbit downstream broadband, the sales of the 50Mbit product so far would seem to prove my point. Even Samuel L Jackson's magic hasn't been too potent yet.

If Comcast, UPC, Cablevision, JCom, Comheim, etc can with more limited technology in some cases do it I'm sure VM could. Comheim even offer over cable 2/2Mbit, and 10/10Mbit for a small extra cost, right up to 50/10Mbit.

The commercial case is a simple one - ask Bethere how many of their customers take their Pro package. The benefits of that pack are a static IP address, oh and an increase of maximum upstream from 1.3 to 2.5Mbit, it costs 4GBP/month. People *will* pay for the extra upstream, even if as in the case of DSL it costs them downstream.

Thanks for reading my excessively long posting.

BB

[darren.b]

Well said.

I will not upgrade my 10mbit as the higher you go, the worse the download/upload ratio is. I would gladly sacrifice some of my download speed for a better upload.

[Ignitionnet]

If that's how people feel the simple solution is to post here or post on the newsgroup posting.

Hey they may not do anything but it only takes a minute to type 'I agree and would pay!'

[Druchii]

I agree with the posting also, and actually bought 20Mb from Virgin for the 768kbps upload speed at one point.
Right now, i'm pretty chuffed with my 3Mb upstream. I can host a 20-person Teamspeak server and play an online game, and the other half can also play online games and P2P if desired... Without anything slowing down.
I'm doing all this, and thinking... Wow.

50Mbps down does not make me happy. 3Mb up? Well, that did.

[Joxer]

Not to mention the reduction in support calls from people unwittingly running P2P services such as iPlayer and 4OD. I could certainly do with more upload, I have a backlog of photos and video to upload to flickr/youtube but haven't bothered because it takes so long.

[AbyssUnderground]

Well said. I would happily pay extra for more upstream. I don't know how many times I've said it on this forum either... 50/5 sounds a lot nicer, and yes, people WILL pay for it, yet virgin won't give us it and I have to keep asking why.

I totally agree with your points about virgin wanting you to share you life over the likes of Facebook and sharing your photos/videos, but how can they expect us to do it with such a pitiful upload, or an upload that is penalised when you try to use it? I just don't get it. For the fastest ISP in the UK overall (for download speed), and matching Be*there's average, they sure have a bad attitude about making the service better.

If virgin were to offer an "upload plus" service, where they reduced the download in favor of upload (a bit like Be*), I'd even be up for that too. Either way, charging more or sacrificing the download for the upload, people would buy it or people would sacrifice download for it.

People like me who host websites on dedicated servers, and have hundreds of gigabytes of data to syncronise with the server (540gb in total for me alone), thats hard with 512Kbps upload, which I only get sometimes. I'd move to Be* but I'm too far from the exchange to get anything over 3Mbps on ADSL, so cable and virgin is my only option.

Virgin, please please please, listen to the customers for once!!! - You never know, you might actually make some money this way!

[General Maximus]

I completely agree, it is just a shame that they are never going to listen. Unfortunately broadband is marketed much as the same as pcs and also pc world advertise is "this pc has the lastest intel pentium quad core processor..............." and that is what uneducated customers go for without looking at the RAM or anything else. It is the same with BB, Virgin people who look at "how big the MB is" and that is it.

[Ignitionnet]

I would gladly pay more, and indeed did with Be, over 20% more along with giving up some downstream speed in order to get the better upstream.

I would happily give VM a 25 - 50% increment on my 20Mbit costs for a 5+Mbit upstream. I seriously doubt I'm alone, and it would certainly add to those very few who have taken the 50Mbit product.

VM could easily and correctly say that the only people who might want much higher upstream are geeks who are not the average user, then again these are the only people who will want to pay extra for 50Mbit. The 1.5Mbit upstream will turn them off, and is indeed turning them off.

[AbyssUnderground]

Perhaps if they didn't just focus on the people who are uneducated, but people who actually require specific specifications of connection, and who are willing to pay extra or sacrifice download, they may make a little more money out of the people who know what they need and what price they should be paying. As stated above, I'm a web designer and I need as much upload as I can muster most of the time. Unfortunately ADSL isn't an option, and 10Mbps is all I (well, my Dad) can afford to pay for with its lousy 512Kbps upload.

I think a petition is in order for all of those people who know what they're talking about and why they need a higher upload than virgin currently provide. Perhaps that will give us a smidgin of a chance of virgin listening to us and realising "oh, there are some people who know what they're talking about wanting to use our services and give us their money for something we can provide"...

[Ignitionnet]

At the end of the day the only people who are going to be wanting 50Mbit with a very few exceptions will be people who are a bit geeky and do understand it all, and are going to be very turned off by a 1.5Mbit upload.

How many of them who will not take the XXL service because of that frankly derogatory upload could be swayed by a 5Mbit upload?

When you release a cutting edge service it reaches cutting edge customers who will criticise and review every aspect of that service, the upload certainly being a part of it.

[Mick Fisher]

I agree with everything except paying extra.

£51.00/month is quite enough for a 50/5 service IMO.

VM, as usual, are all hot air and no substance.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mick Fisher

I agree with everything except paying extra.

£51.00/month is quite enough for a 50/5 service IMO.

VM, as usual, are all hot air and no substance.

If it's enough for a 50/5 service how do you feel about it for a 50/1,5 service?

[hokkers999]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

[snip]

How many of them who will not take the XXL service because of that frankly derogatory upload could be swayed by a 5Mbit upload?

[snip]

Or by scrapping the ludicrous £130 set up cost and then forcing you to take equipment you don't want or need?

[RubberyDuck]

I believe the point you should be making is this:

VirginMedia like nearly all ISP's have symetrical internet links, whether they are optical or leased lines.

My point being, Virgin for example have a OC48 (Complete Guess) dedicated link to the internet, this link provides the same speed up as well as down, all inclusive within the cost. If Virgin can provide 50Mbit down to it's end users, why can't it provide 50Mbit up as well at the same time? The Docsis 3 standard can easily accomodate this, TBH I'd be quite happy with 5Mbit up as the point you are making, though seriously I cannot see why they cannot provide a decent upload speed as well as the more than sufficient download speed, I don't see the cost implications.

Currently I am on BeThere and quite easily get the 1.3Mbit up, though I only achieve around 8Mbit down. All this for £17.50 a month + Line Rental. I could have 2 phone lines installed and double that speed for about £4 extra as the 50Mbit VM are offering. Not that it's fantastic download speed I admit, but upload would be better than VM. The people who actually get 24Mbit on BeThere, could in theory get around 45Mbit download and a 5Mbit upload for the same money, ontop of that I believe you can upload and download at max speeds at the same time.

Lastly, when Fibre eventually hits the majority of our homes, VM will be left miles behind, if they don't buck there ideas up.

[broadbandking]

I understand people wont higher upload but the actual upload is 1.75Mbit not 1.5Mbit

---------- Post added at 10:08 ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 ----------

Originally Posted by hokkers999

Or by scrapping the ludicrous £130 set up cost and then forcing you to take equipment you don't want or need?

You will find its £80 setup not £130