Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7817926.stm

For all those who condemned Hamas for using human shields, and said that the Israeli army was doing all it can to protect civilians and not target them on purpose.

If that is verified as true then such action is indeed shocking and should be condemned. On discovery, civilians should be extracted by the Israelis to a place of safety away from the front lines.

The problem is that verification of abuse will be difficult as Israel controls access to the war zone.

The only way to get Israel out of Gaza is to call a ceasefire, get medics into the zone to deal with the injured, dead and displaced and then to get media into the area to record the actions there so evidence is gathered of what has taken place as only independent confirmation carries any credibility.

The rockets from Hezbollah in Lebanon are not helpful and are only prolonging the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by ntluser

If that is verified as true then such action is indeed shocking and should be condemned. On discovery, civilians should be extracted by the Israelis to a place of safety away from the front lines.

The problem is that verification of abuse will be difficult as Israel controls access to the war zone.

The only way to get Israel out of Gaza is to call a ceasefire, get medics into the zone to deal with the injured, dead and displaced and then to get media into the area to record the actions there so evidence is gathered of what has taken place as only independent confirmation carries any credibility.

The rockets from Hezbollah in Lebanon are not helpful and are only prolonging the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

That information was coming from the Red Cross.

As for Hezbollah involvement I direct you to :

Israeli cabinet minister Raif Eitan said he believed Palestinians in Lebanon, not Hezbollah, were behind the attack.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7817135.stm

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Not content with murdering children in Gaza, the Israeli army targeted UN facilities even though provided with the coordinates of their facilities. This has resulted in the UN feeling it cannot carry out its humanitarian role as Israeli soldiers are firing on them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7818577.stm

Unrwa's move came shortly after it said one person had been killed and two hurt when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.
It said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision.
"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unrwa spokesman Chris Gunness.
"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army."

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Not content with murdering children in Gaza, the Israeli army targeted UN facilities even though provided with the coordinates of their facilities. This has resulted in the UN feeling it cannot carry out its humanitarian role as Israeli soldiers are firing on them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7818577.stm

As someone who with a heavy heart has understood Israel's need to act, this is indefensible, as mentioned above the UN gave the IDF satellite co-ordinates to both of these schools.
The IDF were well aware both of these schools were being used by civilians as a "safe place", the response of course was "we took fire from there", given that that is true, small arms fire, what sort of army fires tank rounds into a building that is known to contain woman and children?
This doesn't excuse any coward from Hamas, what sort of "man" uses a building containing woman and children to fire on an enemy whom he "knows" will fire back?
Like conflicts from the year dot, the longer the fighting goes on the more each side loses its humanity.

[Osem]

These wholly reprehensible and inhuman actions by the Israelis will serve only to add to the hatred and the conflict. Over the years, I've tended to have sympathy with Israel. In common with a rapidly increasing number of people, I believe, I now feel that sympathy has been misplaced and actually abused by the Israelis in the sense that it allowed them to carry on successfully portraying themselves as the restrained victims of this conflict whilst actually inspiring them to acts of increasingly indiscriminate aggression. This being the case, I can't imagine the scale and scope of the hatred these evil acts will inspire amongst Israel's enemies and those innocents who've suffered directly at their hands. There isn't a Jew anywhere who's safer as a result of what's going on - quite the reverse in fact!

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

That information was coming from the Red Cross.

As for Hezbollah involvement I direct you to :

Thanks for that. I was wrong about Hezbollah. Must admit though I find it intriguing that so many various groups seem to have such easy access to rockets and other military hardware and are able to launch said rockets without interference from the local authorities of the country in which they are launched.

As for Gaza, I don't see the Israelis halting their advance nor do I see any effective action from the rest of the world. As long as rockets are being fired into Israel, the Israelis will continue with their campaign.If Hamas intend to continue doing this, non-Militant Palestinians should head to the Egyptian border to avoid retaliatory fire from the Israelis. I know that it will mean leaving their homes but it is better to do that in preference to being killed. No-one, civilian or military, is safe on a battlefield. Better to leave those who want to fight to get on with it and let those who want peace to leave the battlefield safely.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

It seems like this isn't going to end any time soon.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/ar...&in_page_id=64

I do find it strange that 'ceasefire' talks have not involved Hamas. However its unlclear from other news reports whether Hamas have infact rejected any plans.

One thing is clear, the US abstained from the vote, which would make people think that they do support the action.

The Security Council's near-unanimous vote represents an important diplomatic punctuation mark in this crisis, correspondents say. But the US abstention weakened the impact of the vote because Washington's support would have placed more pressure on Israel to halt its offensive, they add.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7819371.stm

If whats said below, from the above metro link, is true - and I have no reason to believe it's not true based on what I have been reading over the past few days, then this is another example of Israel's brutality and acts of terror against civilians. I have yet to hear any western government strongly condemming theses specific acts.

Fighting continued in the region with claims Israel allowed 110 Palestinians into a safe house but then shelled it, killing 30, AFP said.

Earlier in this thread people have posted opinions comparing Gaza to concentration camps only to be strongly rebuked on the grounds that its nothing like Auswitch. However one has to remember that there are various types of concentration camps, and I don't think we were comparing Gaza to the camps run by Hitler. Some might say living in Gaza could be worse, so would say not.

Anyway the Vatican certainly agree that it's one 'big concentration camp'

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/ar...&in_page_id=64


And it seems the Israeli's don't like this critcism, insinuating that anyone who has this view has been subjected to Hamas propaganda.

We are astounded to hear from a spiritual dignitary words that are so far removed from truth and dignity," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said.
"The vocabulary of Hamas propaganda, coming from a member of the College of Cardinals, is a shocking and disappointing phenomenon," he said.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Anyway the Vatican certainly agree that it's one 'big concentration camp'

It's only a pity the Vatican wasn't a little more enthusiastic about identifying and condemning concentration camps during the war when it might have made some difference.

The deliberately inflammatory language being used here is pointless. It's not going to make the Israelis stop because they believe those who use such language are subject to Hamas propaganda. There is no sense in which Gaza is a concentration camp.

Someone on Today this morning likened it to the Seige of Berlin, and that indeed is far more accurate. But then that comparison doesn't offer so many potential emotive headlines, so perhaps it's not surprising that nobody is opting for more considered comment along those lines.

[Osem]

Israel's leaders have clearly fallen victim to the notion that if you lie, mislead and delude yourself often enough you start to believe your own lies. The bigger danger here is that their lies, misrepesentations and blanket dismissal of all criticism will cause them to drive themselves into a corner in which anything could happen!!! The US has to get to grips with this problem NOW!

Yes, but they're not going to do that by abstaining in the Security Council, as they did last night, which Israel is liable to take as tacit approval to continue. Unless, of course, that abstention is part of an absolutely mahoosive deal they have done on the quiet to get Israel to behave.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes, but they're not going to do that by abstaining in the Security Council, as they did last night, which Israel is liable to take as tacit approval to continue. Unless, of course, that abstention is part of an absolutely mahoosive deal they have done on the quiet to get Israel to behave.

The US needs to add to its global image problem like Brown needs to add to the National Debt. I'd like to think the lights are on and someone's at home in the Whitehouse but can't see it sadly.

Originally Posted by Osem

I'd like to think the lights are on and someone's at home in the Whitehouse but can't see it sadly.

We'd all like to think that, but after eight years, seriously, what's the point in such self-delusion?

[ntluser]

I agree that the conflict will continue until both sides are prepared to put down weapons.

Hamas were probably not involved in ceasefire talks since the evidence is that they still want to carry on firing rockets into Israel and the Israelis will ignore ceasefire attempts until they stop doing that.

It's hard to view Gaza as a concentration camp since, as far as I know, none of the occupants of Hitler's camps were able to launch rockets.There's no doubt that conditions there are harsh and getting worse day by day.The damage in terms of human lives and in terms of the state of the infrastructure in Gaza will mean that once this is all over..hopefully soon.. Gaza will be in a worse state than it was before.

I feel sorry for the non-Militants there who are essentially prisoners in their own country and innocent victims of an unnecessary war.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Osem

The US needs to add to its global image problem like Brown needs to add to the National Debt. I'd like to think the lights are on and someone's at home in the Whitehouse but can't see it sadly.

You make a very good point. We are in a time where hatred against the US (and all its interests) can be cranked up to immensely high levels in parts of the Muslim world. Rather than making deals behind closed doors, if that is what they are doing - frankly I dont believe it is, they should be more vocal and visual in their actions. Unfortunately at this moment in time they are just showing a face of in-action and by there refusal to say anything, what many will see as continued support for the Israelis.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

You make a very good point. We are in a time where hatred against the US (and all its interests) can be cranked up to immensely high levels in parts of the Muslim world. Rather than making deals behind closed doors, if that is what they are doing - frankly I dont believe it is, they should be more vocal and visual in their actions. Unfortunately at this moment in time they are just showing a face of in-action and by there refusal to say anything, what many will see as continued support for the Israelis.

The US are doing nothing because they believe that the future of the Gaza Palestinians lies in their own hands.

If Hamas keep launching the rockets, before long there won't be many Palestinians left alive there anyway, so a Palestinian homeland won't be needed because there will be no native Palestinians to populate it.There will also be no Palestinians left alive to tell their side of the story.

I think the US will only say something once Hamas declare a "substantial" ceasefire and permanently cease firing rockets into Israel, but I think such an event is highly unlikely unless of course all the militants are killed, which is very sad and so unnecessary.