Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by cogoni

This is Hamas warmongering tactic to score sympathy, aid, and internation damnation of Israel. Reality is, they started it, vollying rockets into a country for 8 yrs and they not doing about it, wasnt going to last forever. Poke someone for long enough there going to retaliate.

Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas, as peddled by the media:

This is why they were launching rockets

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html

Just as they did in Lebanon:

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-08-...eaks-ceasefire

The Israelis are at the root of all evil in the middle east.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by cogoni

This is Hamas warmongering tactic to score sympathy, aid, and internation damnation of Israel. Reality is, they started it, vollying rockets into a country for 8 yrs and they not doing about it, wasnt going to last forever. Poke someone for long enough there going to retaliate.

The reality is that Palestinians dont have a nation to call their own. The reality is that people in Gaza have been living under a siege. The reality is that they are not allowed to work or move outside Gaza. The reality is that 75% of people in Gaza need foreign aid to survive. The reality is that members of a democratically elected goverment is assasinated by the one country in the Middle East that champions itself as the only democratic state in the region.

The reality is that more women and children have been killed in the last 4 days then the total of all Hamas rockets fired into Isreal in the last 2 years. The reality is that the Israel army defies its own Supreme Court who have said that International journalists can enter Gaza. The reality is that the Israeli goverment believes that unless you're a child in Gaza, then you must be a terrorist.

Is that real enough for you?

[Uncle Peter]

Originally Posted by SMG

Well Ive read all I want to regarding this situation. Some of you are so convinced that you are right, yet none of you have any experience whatsoever when dealing with terrorists. The few who have all share the same views.

Militarily, Hamas in the Gaza will be defeated. They will be systemically killed, which, is the only way to deal with terrorists. Personally, I hope the entire Hamas organization is wiped out to a man. They are the lowest form of life, using civvies as cover for their terrorist operations.

What are the victory conditions for militarily beating Hamas though?

How can you systematically kill every member of an organisation which has the majority support of the populace and blends into the population as required? genocide?

Guerilla wars are unwinnable. The only way to resolve the situation is by mediation, to somehow put the vitriol aside and adopt a balanced attitude towards the situation.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas, as peddled by the media:

This is why they were launching rockets

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html

Hamas did not renew the cease fire agreement because they did not want Gaza to continue remaining under siege. It's all very well for people to say Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel, and that they fired trockets as soon as the ceasefire ended.

Very few people actually know the conditions the Israelis imposed on Gaza under the ceasefire, and even fewer people, us included, can truly understand what its like living under those conditions.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Calm down, dear - you're going to blow a blood vessel.

And ahem - Hamas (wiki).

"Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan. Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization."

Also

"On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force."

May I ask which governments have listed the Israelis (Government or otherwise) as a terrorist organisation?

Open your eyes. Thats all that is needed.

ps. will you stop following me around this forum and harrassing me please.

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

What are the victory conditions for militarily beating Hamas though?

How can you systematically kill every member of an organisation which has the majority support of the populace and blends into the population as required? genocide?

Guerilla wars are unwinnable. The only way to resolve the situation is by mediation, to somehow put the vitriol aside and adopt a balanced attitude towards the situation.

- we should learn from history, so as not to repeat it.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

What are the victory conditions for militarily beating Hamas though?

How can you systematically kill every member of an organisation which has the majority support of the populace and blends into the population as required? genocide?

Guerilla wars are unwinnable. The only way to resolve the situation is by mediation, to somehow put the vitriol aside and adopt a balanced attitude towards the situation.

I honestly believe that the Israeli government would not even blink an eye at the thought of killing the entire population in Gaza.

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

What are the victory conditions for militarily beating Hamas though?

How can you systematically kill every member of an organisation which has the majority support of the populace and blends into the population as required? genocide?

Guerilla wars are unwinnable. The only way to resolve the situation is by mediation, to somehow put the vitriol aside and adopt a balanced attitude towards the situation.

I quite agree that ultimately, you can't overcome guerillas without some form of negotiated arrangement being agreed, however that shouldn't detract from a couple of unfortunate pieces of misinformation in your post.

Firstly, it's misleading to say that Hamas has 'the majority support of the populace', because that's to ignore the fact that they don't have the majority support of the Palestinian people as a whole. They may command support in Gaza, but that doesn't grant them legitimacy any more than the SNP would have the legitimacy to start creating an independent Scotland by force in Banffshire, just because they have a majority vote there.

Secondly, it's all very well saying that the vitriol must be put to one side, however, by implication your post is critical of Israel, rather than Hamas, whose founding principles include the destruction of Israel. Plenty of vitriol to be put aside there, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by chaos23

Open your eyes. Thats all that is needed.

ps. will you stop following me around this forum and harrassing me please.

My eyes are open - I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

btw, pointing out blatant inaccuracies is a new definition of harassment I haven't come across before.

You still haven't answered my question, have you?

[Uncle Peter]

Originally Posted by Chris

I quite agree that ultimately, you can't overcome guerillas without some form of negotiated arrangement being agreed, however that shouldn't detract from a couple of unfortunate pieces of misinformation in your post.

Firstly, it's misleading to say that Hamas has 'the majority support of the populace', because that's to ignore the fact that they don't have the majority support of the Palestinian people as a whole. They may command support in Gaza, but that doesn't grant them legitimacy any more than the SNP would have the legitimacy to start creating an independent Scotland by force in Banffshire, just because they have a majority vote there.

Secondly, it's all very well saying that the vitriol must be put to one side, however, by implication your post is critical of Israel, rather than Hamas, whose founding principles include the destruction of Israel. Plenty of vitriol to be put aside there, wouldn't you agree?

Just to clarify, Gaza is the matter at hand and there are people who will provide moral and material support to the organisation, this doesn't mean to say that they should automatically be sentenced to death. And I quite agree, founding your principles on the destruction of a nation is wholly unacceptable and it's equally important that any member of Hamas who wishes to have a voice in the Palestinian state or the international community needs to renounce this sort of attitude.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

My eyes are open - I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

btw, pointing out blatant inaccuracies is a new definition of harassment I haven't come across before.

You still haven't answered my question, have you?

I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

Yet another falsehood.

[Dai]

Isn't it amazing how quickly this thread has become a 'minime' of what is happening on the ground. People taking extreme points of view, dragging up 'facts' that support their view, ignoring others, getting aggressive and impolite towards their perceived enemies..

In my eyes they're all as bad as one another. Obsessives driven by religous fanaticism or political gain on both sides who override reason and reasonable behaviour. None of them prepared to admit mistakes or consider reasonable compromise despite every lesson from history that only compromise or genocide can ever work.

Until someone smacks their heads together and they start to act like adults and proper representatives of their people the hatred and death will continue to cycle around. Each side killing to 'avenge' some perceived evil from the other, as if that *ever* solved anything.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by DaiNasty

Isn't it amazing how quickly this thread has become a 'minime' of what is happening on the ground. People taking extreme points of view, dragging up 'facts' that support their view, ignoring others, getting aggressive and impolite towards their perceived enemies..

In my eyes they're all as bad as one another. Obsessives driven by religous fanaticism or political gain on both sides who override reason and reasonable behaviour. None of them prepared to admit mistakes or consider reasonable compromise despite every lesson from history that only compromise or genocide can ever work.

Until someone smacks their heads together and they start to act like adults and proper representatives of their people the hatred and death will continue to cycle around. Each side killing to 'avenge' some perceived evil from the other, as if that *ever* solved anything.

Good post.

Prior to my last post, I have been of the same opinion. I really posted in response to the masses of posts which continue to condemn one side without looking at the overall picture.

No one is looking to the future, there all busy finding fault & trying to prove blame. Until they sit down & talk, nothing will change.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Originally Posted by chaos23

This has nothing to do with fighting terrorists. Hamas are freedom fighters. The Israeli terrorists are slaughtering, men, women and children - its the Israeli terrorists that are the lowest form of life. As long as Israel continue these atrocities they will NEVER live in peace.

In your opinion! An opinion that is not shared by other countries. So unless you can provide proof, it will remain, just, your opinion.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Dr Gilbert, a Norweigen Dr has just confirmed on PRESS TV that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon that shreads the body in pieces. If the person lives they will develop Cancer. The Dr has said that these weapons are against international law and that women and children have been affected by this weapon.

They are called Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME)

Looks more like Reactive Materials (RM) rounds to me, though I'm no expert. And these are designed to leave no residue and are probably not carcinogenic.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,145298,00.html

Originally Posted by chaos23

Hamas are freedom fighters.

Could you explain, please, how it is necessary for a 'freedom' fighter to have in his founding charter a vow to destroy a neighbouring nation state? It sounds to me like Hamas has rather more in mind than your somewhat naive and simplistic notion of 'freedom fighting'.