Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[the_neurotic_cat]

Israel vows lasting Gaza campaign

In this BBC article Richard Falk is quoted as referring to the Gaza population as defenceless. I'm sure that most of the Gaza population are, however it appears that there are some of them who are involved with launching missiles at the Israeli civilian population.

I feel that Israel is making efforts to minimise collateral damage within the context of launching high explosive ordnance into densely populated civilian settlements at militia facilites. The people involved with the offensive actions against Israel are mixing with the non-combative palastinians who are trying desparately to live thier daily lives. This makes it inevitable that there will be death and suffering for the Gazan familys.

I realise that there is a highly complex and established causality loop of violence that is highly integrated, differentiated and culturalised within both the Palastinian and Israeli camps. Israel should defend itself as should the Palastinians.

I have sympathy for both the Gazans and Israelis. I'm stuck as to what to think due to the dissonance within my perspective. My current train of thought is that either Israel should become uninhibited with its military or the Hamas should surrender thier military approach.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Let us not forget that the Israelis were killing children in palestine long before Hamar were elected in 'power'. Many fathers have had their sons shot down by bullets for throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. Homes were being destroyed by israeli tanks long before hamas won the election.

Very very good point.

[demented]

Originally Posted by Damien

Yes, Don't get me wrong Israel's reaction is completely overblown. The problem is that we need to find a way for both sides to work towards a peace and it is not helped by the Palestinians. There is a very easy way to stop the Israeli attacks, stop attacking Israel.

The IRA comparison is a good one, both as a lesson for Israel to help them deal with terrorist groups and as a lesson to the Palestinians that the only time these issues get better is after people have become tired of terrorists groups and reject them. The IRA truly died because the people of Ireland had enough and both sides came to a compromise.

Hamas/Hizbollah will not destroy Israel, they only bring more death and pain to the people they claim to protect. They may not think this, because in a lot of cases these groups are actually providing medical care and education. However, the only reason that there was a absence of these things was because of the groups themselves. Equally, The only way Israel is going to be able to live in peace is if they understand the Palestinians are people, a people they actually should be able to relate to, and they deserve a home as well.

As long as terrorism remains the course of action though, nothing will ever progress. Basically, Although Israel are in the wrong here, It is up to the Palestinians to step up and say "We have had enough, we want peace". Then both sides need to give a bit of what they want up.

These are wonderful sentiments, I would say they are too generalised and focusing on the palestinian half. In response to them I would like to say the other half. How can one have peace so long as Israel is one of the most militarised nations on earth? Where after a glittering military career you can move next door and become a politician, and probably Prime Minister. Why would a military want peace? If there were a complete and proper peace you'd have to dismantle much of the Israeli state. Rather overwhelming advantage militarily, keeping the palestinians poor is quite a good scenario for the military, as you can go through cycles of talks, fighting, talks, fighting, ceasefire, fighting, ceasefire, fighting which is more or less what has happened since Oslo.

Hamas as an organisation is also probably fairly satisfied with how things have worked out for precisely the opposite reasons in most cases. Even if Hamas wanted peace, the israeli military would be critical of it, as the current scenario for militants on both sides is the next best thing after peace.

So i will ask again if not what they are doing what SHOULD the israeli's be doing ?? surely no one is saying they should continue to allow rockets to be fired at them and not respond or is that what people are saying ??. I don't like conflicts anymore then the rest of you and i understand the palestinian people have suffered greatly. With that in mind why would they allow the "party that cares about them" to fire rockets from their neighbourhood knowing retalation has to come i simply don't get it. We all mourn the loss of life and none of us want to see it dragged out longer then it needs to be but what else given the military advantage Israel has were it's options.

[demented]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So i will ask again if not what they are doing what SHOULD the israeli's be doing ?? surely no one is saying they should continue to allow rockets to be fired at them and not respond or is that what people are saying ??. I don't like conflicts anymore then the rest of you and i understand the palestinian people have suffered greatly. With that in mind why would they allow the "party that cares about them" to fire rockets from their neighbourhood knowing retalation has to come i simply don't get it. We all mourn the loss of life and none of us want to see it dragged out longer then it needs to be but what else given the military advantage Israel has were it's options.

Diplomacy. Neither side in power is interested in peace at the moment, even though a lot of people below them on both sides maybe literally dying for it. I doubt peace ever can be achieved as it involves literally constructing two states devoid of the extensive military or militia influences, on both sides.

[Maribel]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Homes were being destroyed by israeli tanks long before hamas won the election.

link and link

[Dai]

Originally Posted by demented

Diplomacy. Neither side in power is interested in peace at the moment, even though a lot of people below them on both sides maybe literally dying for it. I doubt peace ever can be achieved as it involves literally constructing two states devoid of the extensive military or militia influences, on both sides.

An interesting essay here:
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.as...=2&article=507

'Warehousing' - a fascinating concept..

Originally Posted by DaiNasty

An interesting essay here:
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.as...=2&article=507

'Warehousing' - a fascinating concept..

Sounds better than gulag I suppose.

[Dai]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Sounds better than gulag I suppose.

LOL.. all part of the game I suppose. The trick of using emotionally-loaded terms to provoke a conditioned response is an old political weapon.

I'm saddened by the idea that the only real way to settle this matter is an all-out war. Until one side is thoroughly beaten into submission the endless tit-for-tat will continue.

Still waiting for chaos to explain what he means by "Zionist"..........

[SMG]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So i will ask again if not what they are doing what SHOULD the Israeli's be doing ??

Immediately cease the air offensive. The only way to defeat this kind of conflict is with ground troops. Urban warfare. Armoured vehicles, checkpoints, searches, take the fight to the insurgent. Less civilian casualties.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Still waiting for chaos to explain what he means by "Zionist"..........

Maybe xaacers will turn up and explain. I'm still waiting for him to retract his insinuation that those who identify and sympathise with the Palestinians somehow support bombers in the UK.

The think about this topic is that it really very easy to get caught up in it emotionally and heated. Especially when you cant get across your point as you would like to - can get extremely frustrating, esecially if your emotions are already running high from what you see on TV. I don't know how long Chaos has been around, but I'm sure when he's had some time to reflect he wont be labelling you a zionist for much longer.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Maybe xaacers will turn up and explain. I'm still waiting for him to retract his insinuation that those who identify and sympathise with the Palestinians somehow support bombers in the UK.

The think about this topic is that it really very easy to get caught up in it emotionally and heated. Especially when you cant get across your point as you would like to - can get extremely frustrating, esecially if your emotions are already running high from what you see on TV. I don't know how long Chaos has been around, but I'm sure when he's had some time to reflect he wont be labelling you a zionist for much longer.

I agree with you, Saaf - I am sure that anyone who sympathises with those Palestinians not involved in rocket attacks on Israelis (and I include myself in that group) would not like to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser, but just to clarify things, I don't mind being called a Zionist, as I do believe in a Homeland for the Jewish people (but I don't think that's what certain posters meant by it myself (link) - guess I'll never know, as no clarification has been forthcoming ).

[mark233a]

Shocking how the Israelis continue their propaganda of being under constant rocket fire for x years. What about the land grabbing, bombing, blockades, controlling sea/air/land for over 60 years ? Do you really think the Palestinians will take it all lying down ? Ask anyone, if someone invades your land and subjugates you, you will fight back any way you can ! England never surrendered to Germany during WWII! Also, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee represents about 1.6% of the US population and has more influence than 99% of lobby groups in the US. Why? US blind alegence to Israel has caused nothing but trouble for the US and the World from the day they killed British troops just after WW II to steel it. Open your Eyes and see whats happening....

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by mark233a

Shocking how the Israelis continue their propaganda of being under constant rocket fire for x years. What about the land grabbing, bombing, blockades, controlling sea/air/land for over 60 years ? Do you really think the Palestinians will take it all lying down ? Ask anyone, if someone invades your land and subjugates you, you will fight back any way you can ! England never surrendered to Germany during WWII! Also, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee represents about 1.6% of the US population and has more influence than 99% of lobby groups in the US. Why? US blind alegence to Israel has caused nothing but trouble for the US and the World from the day they killed British troops just after WW II to steel it. Open your Eyes and see whats happening....

Alot of people tend to overlook that and blame everything on those pesky palestinians. Some even blame the Jordanians and Egyptians on the current plight in Gaza. I expect you will be getting a history lesson about the region very soon, in an attempt to make you believe that the Palestinians have never had it so good.

---------- Post added at 01:33 ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

I agree with you, Saaf - I am sure that anyone who sympathises with those Palestinians not involved in rocket attacks on Israelis (and I include myself in that group) would not like to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser, but just to clarify things, I don't mind being called a Zionist, as I do believe in a Homeland for the Jewish people (but I don't think that's what certain posters meant by it myself (link) - guess I'll never know, as no clarification has been forthcoming ).

I do not think firing rockets into Israel is right, and it certainly wont achieve anything but more bloodshed of innocent lives in the area, mainly on the Palestinian side. However I can understand why they do it. I can feel sorry for those that fire rockets, I can feel sorry for and understand why a palestinian suicide bomber would walk into a cafe and blow himself or herself up.

I don't want them to do it, I do not think it's right that they do it and I dont want others to follow them into that path, but I can understand why they would do it.

Does that train of thought make me sympathetic to terrorist bombings in the UK? Does it imply that I am happy with that happening. I still can't get over the fact that someone who is supposedly intelligent and well versed can come up with that conclusion about anyone who feels the same way.