Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Originally Posted by SMG

One of the reasons people cannot get together & work things out is that they continually bring up the past. Now the immediate past is relevant, but can you imagine negotiating with someone, trying to find some common ground, when they start ranting about Hitler!, or their ancestors 2000 years ago.

Lets get real, the threat is here & now. Ceasefire. Negotiate for the future, not the past. The past is gone, dead & buried.

We know what the situation is, we know only violence or diplomacy can end it. If this thread is anything to go by, there will never be peace. Someone has to swallow their pride & say enough is enough.

It appeared to be (mostly) working during the ceasefire, but that has lapsed.

Let's hope all this killing and mayhem will stop, and people can get round the table again and try to agree a way forward.

Originally Posted by Damien

He is suggesting that Holocaust was a Western or Christian crime and the state of Israel was formed to atone for these crimes, but those paying the price are Muslims....I disagree with a lot of the characterisation of that, but what else is new.

Well it's not helpful and I reckon it's not on topic..it's the usual trick of trying to confuse matters because he hasn't got a logical point to make and reverts to red herrings to push the thread off topic in the hope we will all forget what point he failed to make...which is becoming extremely annoying.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Wiki1
"The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[24][25] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[26] According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years.[27] The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule"

Wiki2
"By c. 1190 BCE, the Philistines arrived and mingled with the local population, losing their separate identity over several generations."

Both sets of tribes/peoples appear to have arrived about the same time, approx 3000 years ago.

There was not state of Israel though

Originally Posted by chaos23

There was not state of Israel though

And there was no "state of Palestine" either - the area has been ruled by the Arab Caliphate, the Ottomans, the Egyptians (then the Ottomans again), and then the British Mandate, before the proposed United Nations Partition plan for Palestine in 1948.

Two questions -
a) you seem to keep ignoring the matter of the Trans-Jordanian part of the Palestine Mandate, which the Jordanians now have - should this also be given to the Palestinian people?

b) what should happen to all the Israelis who live in that area now?

Originally Posted by chaos23

There was not state of Israel though

Now you're mincing words. Badly.

Agreed, Conversation never benefits from the addition of Hitler to the debate.

I think we are all fed up with the both of the groups (treating Hamas/Hizbollah etc as one group here). Who on earth gains from firing a missile into Israel? What does Hamas think they are doing to other than more support from people who support them anyway, and what does that support actually give?

Why on earth do Israel react in a such a way, they must have a reason but it's insane! They are encouraging more bad feeling and making the whole process harder. If they didn't react, The groups would be looked upon as the terrorist killers they are.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

And there was no "state of Palestine" either - the area has been ruled by the Arab Caliphate, the Ottomans, the Egyptians (then the Ottamans again), and then the British Mandate, before the proposed United Nations Partition plan for Palestine in 1948.

Two questions -
a) you seem to keep ignoring the matter of the Trans-Jordanian part of the Palestine Mandate, which the Jordanians now have - should this also be given to the Palestinian people?

b) what should happen to all the Israelis who live in that area now?

a)Yes
b)Divide the country into equal amounts of land. Gaza and West Bank should not be separated. The Jews must stay now, but they must give up some land. The Palestinians will have separate access to all amineties. The US must stop bankrolling/interfering in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq and the Gulf States. Then we will have peace in the middle east.

Given that there is a significant faction in the middle east that will not tolerate any kind of Israeli state in the region, I think your belief that such a scenario would lead to peace is at best a little rose tinted.

Originally Posted by Damien

Agreed, Conversation never benefits from the addition of Hitler to the debate.

I think we are all fed up with the both of the groups (treating Hamas/Hizbollah etc as one group here). Who on earth gains from firing a missile into Israel? What does Hamas think they are doing to gain other than more support from people who support them anyway, and what does that support actually give?

Why on earth do Israel react in a such a way, they must have a reason but it's insane! They are encouaging more bad blood and making the whole process harder. If they didn't react, The groups would be looked upon as the terrorist killers they are.

I think the cartoon Ramrod found just sums up the whole situation..niether side is doing themselves any favours and they are apparently not seeking a situation that either of them can actually win.

Originally Posted by chaos23

a)Yes
b)Divide the country into equal amounts of land. Gaza and West Bank should not be separated. The Jews must stay now, but they must give up some land. The Palestinians will have separate access to all amineties. The US must stop bankrolling/interfering in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq and the Gulf States. Then we will have peace in the middle east.

Good answers - thank you for that.

btw, I think you may find that it is the other way round with the Saudis and the US.....

[frogstamper]

The sad irony of this tragic situation is that anybody with an ounce of sense knows that the outcome has to be a viable Palestinian state, living in peace next to a secure and safe Israel.
I'm sure the vast majority on both sides realise and except this is the only way forward, but as always its the crazies on both sides on the extremes who put a stop to any meaningful progress.
On the Palestinian side idiots, encouraged by dinnerjacket, who will not except Israel's right to exist, and believe foolhardily that they are going to win with violence.
And on the Israeli side extremely religious settlers who believe that the land was given to them by god, and that the state of Israel has given too much already.
Looking in from the outside you have to wonder what it'll take and how much more suffering both of these diametrically opposed sides are willing, to not only put themselves through, but their children and grand-children before they realise like the majority in the region, that the only way forward is compromise.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Chris

Given that there is a significant faction in the middle east that will not tolerate any kind of Israeli state in the region, I think your belief that such a scenario would lead to peace is at best a little rose tinted.

Do you have a better idea?

Originally Posted by chaos23

Do you have a better idea?

Ok lets turn the question around.What is YOUR solution?Make it a viable one mind?

Originally Posted by chaos23

Do you have a better idea?

I agree with your proposed solution. I just don't agree with your assessment of the likely outcome.

[Julian]

I reckon the Channel 4 news presenter summed it up quite succinctly tonight.

Timing is the issue here, Israel have chosen to (over) react now with a change of US presidency imminent.

They hoped for ( and have got) unequivocal support from the US.

How will Barack Obama be under such circumstances?