Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Nice find Ramrod..that sums up the whole situation nicely..

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Egypt and Jordan are no longer occupying palestine, They occupied Palestine land to protect the Palestinian people from ZIONIST occupation. When Egypt and Jordan left the Israelis occupied this land as well. they didnt oppress its people The Israelis are not only occupying Palestine, they are wiping Palestine and the Palestinian people from the map.

Unfortunatly,today, Egypt is controlled by a puppet government and are collaberating with the west.

Really?
They were "protecting" the palestinian people and not oppressing them? The Palestinians I know who managed to get out of Judea when it was annexed by Jordan would disagree.
That'll be while the Jordanians and Egyptians treated them like dogs, failing to feed them or give adequite medical aid.
You'll notice how the palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have houses, yes? Under Jordanian and Egyptian control, they were in tents, malnutrition and disease was rife. I've seen first hand photographs taken by a friend of mine who fought in the '67 war of the camps around the dead sea. How the Jordanians treated their fellow Palestinians was far worse than any accusation against Israel's treatment of them.
One of the fist things that the Israelis did when they pushed back the attacking armies was actually take responsibility over the refrugees and give them medical aid, which continues to this day, where people from the territories recieve free Israeli medical care (something Israeli's don't get themselves). Of course you'll be unable to acknowledge that won't you, what with it adding shades of grey to your black and white image of the situation.

You may also (although for some reason it appears to have slipped your mind) have noticed that Israel isn't attacking the West Bank, why do you think that is? Could it be because they've not been attacking Israel? Oh wait, that's something else you won't be able to agree with because it backs up the idea that Israel is defending itself against the gazans, and you can't have that now can you?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Borders closed but they allow aid through (aunty reports it as border being opened, but then no other traffic is allowed through, so the border isn't open) although it does have the decency to report that while the border was sealed supplies were allowed through later in the article, oh and this is while Israel was under attack from rockets during the "ceasefire"

Allows aid through for the cameras sporadically at best, if they did people wouldn't have to eat grass

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5338014.ece

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

S_l_m,

they are examined because weapons have been smuggled through this way before.

Also, there is a border crossing on the Egyptian border, with exactly the same restrictions - no one seems to focus on this.

Are Egypt in control of the air space and sea around Gaza and also why is it Israel keeps criticising Egypt for not keeping the border sealed fully tight.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Really?
They were "protecting" the palestinian people and not oppressing them? The Palestinians I know who managed to get out of Judea when it was annexed by Jordan would disagree.
That'll be while the Jordanians and Egyptians treated them like dogs, failing to feed them or give adequite medical aid.
You'll notice how the palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have houses, yes? Under Jordanian and Egyptian control, they were in tents, malnutrition and disease was rife. I've seen first hand photographs taken by a friend of mine who fought in the '67 war of the camps around the dead sea. How the Jordanians treated their fellow Palestinians was far worse than any accusation against Israel's treatment of them.
One of the fist things that the Israelis did when they pushed back the attacking armies was actually take responsibility over the refrugees and give them medical aid, which continues to this day, where people from the territories recieve free Israeli medical care (something Israeli's don't get themselves). Of course you'll be unable to acknowledge that won't you, what with it adding shades of grey to your black and white image of the situation.

You may also (although for some reason it appears to have slipped your mind) have noticed that Israel isn't attacking the West Bank, why do you think that is? Could it be because they've not been attacking Israel? Oh wait, that's something else you won't be able to agree with because it backs up the idea that Israel is defending itself against the gazans, and you can't have that now can you?

noticed that Israel isn't attacking the West Bank, why do you think that is

Thats because Gaza is not under the Zionists control. Hamas was democratically elected after free and fair elections, they dont like that.

Here it is in black and white for you


Hitler comes to power who is a CHRISTIAN

Millons of Jews die in the holocaust(in EUROPE) instigated by Hitler(a CHRISTIAN) and his henchmen.

The Palestinian Homeland, where Palestinians live and who are mostly MUSLIM, have their land stolen and given to the jews who oppress the Palestinians and steal more and more of their land.

So, a crime committed by christians in EUROPE, is then paid for by the MUSLIMS(Palestinians), who have their homeland taken away, through no fault of their own,which is then given to the Jews. The Jews then oppress the Palesinians for 60 years


Now i ask you - is that fair??Is that logical??

There are many Kurds living in the UK at the moment, they dont have a homeland either, They are oppressed by the Turks etc. Would you object to them being given British land and renaming it Kurdistan?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

It's all very well to look at the history of the region over the past 60 years and blaming Egypt and Jordan for their part in the suffering of the Palestinians. This somehow is used to justify Israel's actions.

We have to remember that it wasn't Egyptian or Jordanian banks that flattened Gaza as their troops were withdrawing, it's not Egyptians and Jordanians that are now oppressing palestinians in Gaza, by sealing off borders, by refusing sufficient international aid, by not allowing them to travel outside Gaza to look for work.

I have spoken to Palestinians who have had their sisters raped by Israeli soldiers, had pictures taken off them afterwards and threatened to have them distributed locally unless they spy for the Israelis. I have also spoken to Palestinians who's fathers have been tortured by Israeli soldiers, these are civilians, not soldiers or 'terrorists'. We have all seen scores of children being killed and accepted as collateral damage because a leader of Hamas was attending a mosque at the time of prayer.

It's all very well saying Palestinians suffered under the hands of Egyptians and Jordanians, but in all honesty, the current anger amongst palestinians and many people, muslims and non muslims, around the world, is that Israel continue to oppress the Palestinians. It's the blasai (sp?) attitude that the Israelis have in thinking its ok to kill hundreds of civilians because they 'support' Hamas, or that murdering children is fine because they happen to be caught up in the crossfire.

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

This is laughable, and reinforces my views on the blatant disregard that the israeli government has on civilians.

But Israel's deputy ambassador in London, Talya Lador-Fresher said security institutions and Hamas had been targeted and most casualties were "people in uniform, Hamas operatives that were busy trying to launch rockets and doing terror attacks against Israeli citizens". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7802733.stm)

I am having difficulty trying to post some pics, but it wont be hard for people to have a look at some of the pictures and see how this statement is laughable.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Hitler comes to power who is a CHRISTIAN

I do wish you'd learn how to quote, really, it isn't difficult.

Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs

According to some, Hitler had a general plan, even before the rise of the Nazis to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich. The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position

Hitler expressed admiration for the Muslim military tradition and directed Himmler to initiate Muslim SS Divisions as a matter of policy. According to one confidant, Hitler stated in private, "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness..."

Again you're showing your ignorance of history Chaos, exactly how old are you?
You talk of elections, but ignore that Abbas was elected with 62% of the vote.
You also ignore that he, a democratically elected president, dissolved the Unity Government (probably because you had no idea about it, go on, prove me wrong).
So, unless you're saying that the palestinians should only have democracy if it suits Hamas, either you value their democratic process, or you do not. You can't pick and choose, much as you're trying to.

Your own map showed the amount of Jewish owned land, you're also forgetting that Palestine has never existed as a sovereign state, whereas Israel has. So if you're objecting to people being historically pushed out of land, then why not object to the Israelis being pushed out before?

I also note your lack of comment on the current Jordanian occupation of the larger part of what was known as palestine.

Originally Posted by SLM

We have to remember that it wasn't Egyptian or Jordanian banks that flattened Gaza as their troops were withdrawing, it's not Egyptians and Jordanians that are now oppressing palestinians in Gaza, by sealing off borders, by refusing sufficient international aid, by not allowing them to travel outside Gaza to look for work.

No, instead they offered them no work, gave them no food or medical supplies, made them live in tents.
As for "flattening Gaza" when they withdrew, that's an excellent example of the ignorance of the situation.
The PA agreed to Israeli homes in Gaza being destroyed so that they would not have the issue of what to do with them and the riots they feared would ensue.

Originally Posted by SLM

It's all very well saying Palestinians suffered under the hands of Egyptians and Jordanians, but in all honesty, the current anger amongst palestinians and many people, muslims and non muslims, around the world, is that Israel continue to oppress the Palestinians. It's the blasai (sp?) attitude that the Israelis have in thinking its ok to kill hundreds of civilians because they 'support' Hamas, or that murdering children is fine because they happen to be caught up in the crossfire.

Whereas Hamas think it's ok to deliberately target civilians rather than catch them in a crossfire or because they're close to military targets (which funnily enough Israel doesn't tend to place near civilians, unlike Hamas)

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I do wish you'd learn how to quote, really, it isn't difficult.

Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...igious_beliefs



Again you're showing your ignorance of history Chaos, exactly how old are you?
You talk of elections, but ignore that Abbas was elected with 62% of the vote.
You also ignore that he, a democratically elected president, dissolved the Unity Government (probably because you had no idea about it, go on, prove me wrong).
So, unless you're saying that the palestinians should only have democracy if it suits Hamas, either you value their democratic process, or you do not. You can't pick and choose, much as you're trying to.

Your own map showed the amount of Jewish owned land, you're also forgetting that Palestine has never existed as a sovereign state, whereas Israel has. So if you're objecting to people being historically pushed out of land, then why not object to the Israelis being pushed out before?

I also note your lack of comment on the current Jordanian occupation of the larger part of what was known as palestine.



No, instead they offered them no work, gave them no food or medical supplies, made them live in tents.
As for "flattening Gaza" when they withdrew, that's an excellent example of the ignorance of the situation.
The PA agreed to Israeli homes in Gaza being destroyed so that they would not have the issue of what to do with them and the riots they feared would ensue.



Whereas Hamas think it's ok to deliberately target civilians rather than catch them in a crossfire or because they're close to military targets (which funnily enough Israel doesn't tend to place near civilians, unlike Hamas)

Maybe you can answer my question:

There are many Kurds living in the UK at the moment, they dont have a homeland either, They are oppressed by the Turks etc. Would you object to them being given British land and renaming it Kurdistan?

Hitler was brought up as Roman Catholic: Is that not correct?

So if you're objecting to people being historically pushed out of land, then why not object to the Israelis being pushed out before?


Because the land was not theirs to be pushed out from

Do you know why ABBAS disolved the unity government - because the zionists rejected it, if Hamas and Fatah were involved they would not deal with them. Further evidence that Abbas is a puppet.

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Whereas Hamas think it's ok to deliberately target civilians rather than catch them in a crossfire or because they're close to military targets (which funnily enough Israel doesn't tend to place near civilians, unlike Hamas)

LINK PLEASE

Originally Posted by chaos23

Because the land was not theirs to be pushed out from

The destruction of the occupied Jewish state began in AD 70, with the seige and then destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman general, Titus. This was followed by the fall of other Jewish strongholds, notably the fortress at Masada. Josephus says more than a million people died during the seige; afterwards about 97,000 were enslaved. A great many fled to other parts of the Med. This was only the first Jewish-Roman war, but by the end of it, anything recognisable of ancient Israel was gone, because Titus had the temple razed to the ground.

This is a matter of historical fact. There was a nation called Israel, it was occupied, divided into Roman provinces, and when the natives got too restelss, it was brutally destroyed. So yes, the Jews were 'pushed out', and the descendents of those people do have a historical claim to the land west of the Jordan river.

Chaos, you do know Hitler was not really religious? I don't care what he was brought up as, he was not a Roman Catholic. I went to a Roman Catholic primary school, I had done confessions and had the first communion, but I am a atheist.

People's faith is not decided by a form, or their background, it's decided by them. Hitler was clearly not a religious man.

Also the post above, by Chris, is a good post. You should take it in rather than dismissing it out of hand because it's not been approved by Prison Planet or wherever you get your facts from..

Time to leave this thread as i have done a few others lately because some posters are not interested in discussing the subject they are only on here to serve their personal agenda which knows no fact or reason so cya later all.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Damien

Chaos, you do know Hitler was not really religious? I don't care what he was brought up as, he was not a Roman Catholic. I went to a Roman Catholic primary school, I had done confessions and had the first communion, but I am a atheist.

People's faith is not decided by a form, or their background, it's decided by them. Hitler was clearly not a religious man.

Also the post above, by Chris, is a good post. You should take it in rather than dismissing it out of hand because it's not been approved by Prison Planet or wherever you get your facts from..

How do you know Hitler was not religious? Anyway that besides the point, my point was that the atrocities carried out against the Jews were not carried out by Muslims, but Christians from Europe, so why did the Muslims have their land taken and given to the Jews?

With reference to Chris's point, the state of Israel was established in May 1948, before that time Israel did not exsist.

Originally Posted by chaos23

How do you know Hitler was not religious? Anyway that besides the point, my point was that the atrocities carried out against the Jews were not carried out by Muslims, but Christians from Europe, so why did the Muslims have their land taken and given to the Jews?

With reference to Chris's point, the state of Israel was established in May 1948, before that time Israel did not exsist.

What Hitler has to do with this I can't quite see.

Originally Posted by chaos23

How do you know Hitler was not religious? Anyway that besides the point, my point was that the atrocities carried out against the Jews were not carried out by Muslims, but Christians from Europe, so why did the Muslims have their land taken and given to the Jews?

With reference to Chris's point, the state of Israel was established in May 1948, before that time Israel did not exsist.

Wiki1
"The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[24][25] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[26] According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years.[27] The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.
Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule"

Wiki2
"By c. 1190 BCE, the Philistines arrived and mingled with the local population, losing their separate identity over several generations."

Both sets of tribes/peoples appear to have arrived about the same time, approx 3000 years ago.

Originally Posted by Maggy J

What Hitler has to do with this I can't quite see.

He is suggesting that Holocaust was a Western or Christian crime and the state of Israel was formed to atone for these crimes, but those paying the price are Muslims....I disagree with a lot of the characterisation of that, but what else is new.

[SMG]

One of the reasons people cannot get together & work things out is that they continually bring up the past. Now the immediate past is relevant, but can you imagine negotiating with someone, trying to find some common ground, when they start ranting about Hitler!, or their ancestors 2000 years ago.

Lets get real, the threat is here & now. Ceasefire. Negotiate for the future, not the past. The past is gone, dead & buried.

We know what the situation is, we know only violence or diplomacy can end it. If this thread is anything to go by, there will never be peace. Someone has to swallow their pride & say enough is enough.