ID Cards

Originally Posted by tphj

I have a driving licence and passport both my photo and date of birth are on them,so no one can complain about that.
On an ID card I would have the above on plus my NI number,my right to live and work in the UK,any biometric details that are required.
The only issue I have with ID cards is the cost

You haven't actually stated any benefits, only features.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by tphj

ID Cards
For or Against?
Why?

Against.


Why?

Have a look at the many, many ID card threads we've had here before...


But, in brief...

- Not necessary.

- Civil liberties.

- Won't stop terrorism / illegal immigrants / benefit fraud / zombie apocalypses etc.

- Cost.

- Far too much data on the database(s).

- Government IT project = doomed to suffer massive cost-overruns & not actually do what's intended.

- Government database(s) = doomed to be leaked / stolen / lost / left on a train / etc.


And so on...

[Gary L]

I think those who say they have nothing to hide will probably think different when after a few months of data being collated on them. some of that info is read back to them in the form of a question. like you went to Liverpool on such a date and I see you bought such and such on another date. why did you buy such and such or even would you like to buy such and such to go with your such and such that we can see you bought.

This is not a thing to combat terrorism. it is just to gather as much information as possible about a person and their habits and lifestyle.
within a few years of us having the card, it wouldn't surprise me if it now becomes compulsory to have a chip implanted under your skin, and a barcode tattoo on the back of your hand

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Gary L

I think those who say they have nothing to hide will probably think different when after a few months of data being collated on them. some of that info is read back to them in the form of a question. like you went to Liverpool on such a date and I see you bought such and such on another date. why did you buy such and such or even would you like to buy such and such to go with your such and such that we can see you bought.

This is not a thing to combat terrorism. it is just to gather as much information as possible about a person and their habits and lifestyle.
within a few years of us having the card, it wouldn't surprise me if it now becomes compulsory to have a chip implanted under your skin, and a barcode tattoo on the back of your hand

LOL their records of my movements and purchases would be much fun I can tell you.

[demented]

Originally Posted by Osem

LOL their records of my movements and purchases would be much fun I can tell you.

Doubt it. I got tracked and followed by some undercover police officers that didn't declare themselves. I thought they were a pair of muggers and were highly suspicious of them as they stuck out a mile and was walking away at a very brisk speed. It didn't occur to these muppets that I was walking along and started being followed by what looked like two very large and padded out thugs who may have had weapons hidden that I might start to be a little bit concerned. The reason I was followed? I was walking and wearing a pair of gloves on a very cold day. Walking along a section of road known for it's windiness all year round. Fortunately for me their sarge who turned up after being called in with a panda car full of cops wasn't so amused by their story.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by demented

Doubt it. I got tracked and followed by some undercover police officers that didn't declare themselves. I thought they were a pair of muggers and were highly suspicious of them as they stuck out a mile and was walking away at a very brisk speed. It didn't occur to these muppets that I was walking along and started being followed by what looked like two very large and padded out thugs who may have had weapons hidden that I might start to be a little bit concerned. The reason I was followed? I was walking and wearing a pair of gloves on a very cold day. Walking along a section of road known for it's windiness all year round. Fortunately for me their sarge who turned up after being called in with a panda car full of cops wasn't so amused by their story.

Not sure what that's got to do with ID cards

[demented]

Originally Posted by Osem

Not sure what that's got to do with ID cards

I'm saying that mass harvesting of such information leads to such weird scenarios and ID cards would make things a million times worse. If you had ID cards and environment affecting biometrics you could make all sorts of weird connections about where you'd been. Been through a park at night? Must be a drug dealer. Browsed round a shop during a day when there was a robber. Must be the shoplifter. Wandering round London with interest in particular buildings? Must be a terrorist, not a tourist.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by demented

I'm saying that mass harvesting of such information leads to such weird scenarios and ID cards would make things a million times worse. If you had ID cards and environment affecting biometrics you could make all sorts of weird connections about where you'd been. Been through a park at night? Must be a drug dealer. Browsed round a shop during a day when there was a robber. Must be the shoplifter. Wandering round London with interest in particular buildings? Must be a terrorist, not a tourist.

Couldn't that same information just as easily rule a suspect out of the equation though?

Originally Posted by Osem

Couldn't that same information just as easily rule a suspect out of the equation though?

Only after they had been waterboarded, just to be sure......

[Osem]

You've been watching too much Spooks!!!

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

You haven't actually stated any benefits, only features.

It's funny but my wife said that to me on our wedding day ...

[demented]

Originally Posted by Osem

Couldn't that same information just as easily rule a suspect out of the equation though?

Depends how one goes about things as to how that is answered. The trend thesedays is for ever more harvesting of information. There's a scary story in Tescopoly about a lady who took off her gloves/scarf (I forget which) in the supermarket and somehow managed to escape the clutches of the security guards through not being quick enough. Her Tesco clubcard was used and the police promptly dispatched round to her house to apprehend the criminal.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by demented

Depends how one goes about things as to how that is answered. The trend thesedays is for ever more harvesting of information. There's a scary story in Tescopoly about a lady who took off her gloves/scarf (I forget which) in the supermarket and somehow managed to escape the clutches of the security guards through not being quick enough. Her Tesco clubcard was used and the police promptly dispatched round to her house to apprehend the criminal.

Blimey - we'd better get shot of our clubcards then....

[bw41101]

Originally Posted by Chris

So, if the police were permitted, by law, to cavity search you without any reasonable cause, would you be happy for them to do that because you've nothing to hide? Or, to turn over your house without a warrant, just in case?

The scheme being proposed by the Government will not compel people to carry an ID card on their person. And in any case, carrying, or losing, a piece of plastic with at worst your name and an unflattering photo on it hardly compares to the massive breach of personal security that could occur should your national ID card go missing.

There's no need for a passport when travelling within the EU as it is - only to enter or leave the Schengen immigration zone from the UK. Currently you either carry a passport, or you carry nothing, depending on where you're travelling from and to. That won't change, except that you might carry an ID card instead of a passport. What's the difference, exactly? A passport's not exactly bulky.

How, exactly? Illegal immigrants arrive concealed in the backs of 40-tonne HGVs and don't form a queue at passport control.

The police, or other Authorities, have been identifying people in this country for centuries. The number of criminal cases where identity is a significant problem in cracking a case and getting a conviction is vanishingly small.

Seeing as you would not have to actually carry the card described in the Government's proposed scheme, it will be of no use whatsoever in stop-and-search incidents.

The cost of these things is in effect a massively regressive tax on the poor, who can ill afford it. It's hardly convenient to most of the rest of us as well.

But the cost issue pales into insignificance next to the Government's demonstrable inability to enforce anything that even remotely resembles internal data security.

Don't forget, if you have any children, that your full contact and bank account details are still floating around out there on a CD-ROM containing details of the UK's entire child benefit entitlement.

That's a lot of words to express an opinion - which (of course) you're perfectly entitled to do. However (as I intimated when originally asked) I've got absolutely nothing to hide and irrespective of how many members make a song and dance about the reasons for my choice nothing will persuade me otherwise - to whit, have no qualms about having an ID card

Capiche!

Si thee

[Matth]

Against:

1. Cost - I can see a "can't pay / won't pay" campaign gaining ground. After all the history of any project like this begins with insane underestimating of the cost, then the inevitable overruns. Whatever they claim it will cost, you can probably quadruple that at least.

2. Effectiveness - perfect ID does not equal security, in fact, it could mean a false sense of security.

3. Data security - the catalogue of incompetence so far does not inspire confidence.

Originally Posted by bw41101

That's a lot of words to express an opinion - which (of course) you're perfectly entitled to do. However (as I intimated when originally asked) I've got absolutely nothing to hide and irrespective of how many members make a song and dance about the reasons for my choice nothing will persuade me otherwise - to whit, have no qualms about having an ID card

Capiche!

Si thee

It sounds to me like you haven't thought about it very much. It's an important and complex subject, and worthy of far more words than I've devoted to it in this thread.

You might want to sleepwalk into information slavery, but I do not.