Brown on the ropes?

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Damien

Don't know anything about the last one, PFI, but the other two seem like a natural progression rather than a 'demise'. We live in the information economy

We'll have to disagree on that, I don't see anything natural or progressive...

I agree Osem. PFI is a ticking timebomb, a Tory initiative that was fully embraced by the New Labourites. We aren't creating any wealth any more because of the failure of successive Tory and Labour Governments so how do we pay for our crumbling schools, hospitals and roads? Pass the burden onto the next generation. We're using up all their fossil fuels so we may as well spend their inheritence.

Originally Posted by Derek S

Sadly I think they know they'll be screwed for the next 10-12 years and will cling to power by their fingertips and try to get some 'unpopular' legislation through before they get turfed out.

Ergh, John Major's privatisation of BR, anyone. Sigh.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think the Tories 'started' the demise of the country and nor do I think Labour continued it. I think both did good and bad things, but thiscountry is not "going to hell in a handcart".

how about this.

list of things tories started and labour allowed to continue or get worse.

1 - privatised utilities
2 - selling off of council housing stock
3 - shift of taxation from income tax to other taxes (mostly done under labour tho)
4 - legislating practices that allow businesses to keep wages down (although labour intruced the min wage there is various other things going on keeping wage inflation at a minimal)
5 - lowering taxes for the elite
6 - outsourcing government jobs/roles to private companies who make vast profits out of it, PFI is one such thing but there is others.
7- low interest rates to promote debt spending and a unsustainable housing market.
8 - short term policies for short term gains, tories did it with north sea oil, closure of coal mines, private pensions, selling of council houses, importing cheaper products. Labour continued it with allowing mass immigration, starting PFI, raid tax on pension funds, borrowing money during good times so they looked better then they are.

Both parties do have many things in common, they going after the middle class family voters and pensioners, they both are complying with banks and big corporates needs, allowing tax loopholes to continually exist, both want first past the post to stay, both refuse a eu referendum, both want the war in iraq, both want a continuing housing boom regardless of the consequence.

When the tories come in the end of the bad part of the economic cycle will happen during their first 4 years and they will look like economic genuises to the fickle population, what will they change? I expect not much. I expect the nhs budget to drop alongside other public services and tax breaks for the rich and middle class. They will still try and save the housing market before it naturally recovers and continue the attacks on benefits claimants.

The only party talking any sense is lib dems, they recently said what needed saying that we are a nation obsessed with owning property and we need to get over it. Of course they can say what they think openly as they know they will never be in power to action it.

The harsh reality from stripping the country of its wealth (we now quite a poor country with a few wealthy individuals), is we now dont produce anything, massive trade defecit, taxed heavily, in masses of debt, no natural resources, a population that is broke, and no national pride.

9 - perhaps the most damaging one, allowing banks to have less and less regulation and to break the law.

[Xaccers]

Quick question, which banks have actually broken the law and which acts have been broken?

[Osem]

Unpalatable as it may be for some, the state owned industries weren't exactly models of efficiency and public responsibility were they. Under the previous system, much of our infrastructure had been neglected for decades and the massive investment it required could only be paid for in 2 ways - more taxes under state ownership or more profits under private ownership. Successive governments not surprisngly chose the latter since they'd then be able to claim any credit but have private companies to absorb any resulting flak. Both systems of ownership have been seen to have been flawed to an extent but whichever one you take it's ultimately the public who pay either through tax or price increases. At the time the coal industry was rationalised it was largely uneconomic since coal could be imported far cheaper from elsewhere. How many people back then would have wanted to pay more in tax to subsidise UK coal and who could have foreseen oil at $150 a barrel and circumstances under which that coal would be again viable? Still, I do think more effort should have been made to preserve the existing investment in coal since we're built on it.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Both parties do have many things in common, they going after the middle class family voters......

Hmm funny way of showing it! Still with mass redundancies likely at New Labour HQ, here's Jack's latest bandwagon:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...do?expand=true

Some of the comments make intersting reading.

and on the subject of their HQ, here's one I'd missed from a while back:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ty-427849.html

More double standards!

[Osem]

Just been watching Brown on Andrew Marr's show and think I now have a better idea of how Adolf Hitler was acting as the Russians approached his bunker.

[Osem]

Been listening to Ed Miliband this morning on Radio 5 - he made a lot of fuss about how Gordon has been listening, how they've admitted their mistakes and how voters aren't interested in celebrity leaders but will trust Gordon's honesty and experience to see us through.

I'm not asure where Ed's been for the last decade or so but Brown has never listened to anyone and the only time he's admitted mistakes is when he's been forced to. Milliband cited the 10p fiasco as some siort of example of their honesty and humility but as soon as it was announced the Lib Dems made the point that there'd be serious losers amongst vulnerable groups and from that time until they were forced into a U turn Brown and his cohorts denied there was anything wrong.

Miliband banged on about honesty and clearly thinks we should all be grateful for how well Brown's got us out of this mess. Odd how he refused to acknowledge the huge amount of government debt which is a direct result of Brown's ineptitude and which we taxpyers are going to be paying for for decades. He clearly doesn't thinks this matters at all!

As for Brown's economic experience - wasn't it on his watch that this financial bubble was being rapdily inflated? Why trust him to get us out of a problem he stood by and allowed to happen?

Anyway, it's all OK because according to Ed Miliband the entire Cabinet are fully supportive of Gordon. Yet more honesty from the party which invented spin....

I think the situation we have got means there will be no leadership challenge this year as whoever launches it will sink like a stone. Also no one does at this minute want to take over the leadership as they all know damn well more bad news is on it's way and any new leader coming in now is going to be badly tainted by the continuing bad economic climate which in the case of the UK is worse then it needed to be thanks to brownshirt and his merry yes men.

No all these sincere honest people will wait till next year then oust him having only a year to go before an election they know they will lose but hoping they are able to put all the blame on brownshirt and then get back in sooner rather then later.

[ntluser]

I think New Labour have made too many mistakes and it's obvious that they are either not listening or don't know how to deal with the problems which they have allowed to happen.

A government that bases its economic strategy on borrowing and market forces to carry out its policies is like an individual who lives a lifestyle funded by an evergrowing number of credit cards all of which end up being maxed out.

Using a bit of common sense, there are many things we can do to get the economy and society moving in the right direction, but unfortunately self-interest and political correctness get in the way.

Sadly, New Labour lacks the strategic planning skills, common sense and discipline to remedy the situation and Gordon Brown is Captain Bligh on a doomed ship with a mutinous crew.

[Chrysalis]

Damien one thing labour could have done is reduced the nhs budget inline with reduced tax income to prevent extra borrowing, they then should have either scrapped the 10p tax band and stuck to the decision or not scrapped it at all. Shouldnt have reduced the middle income tax band knowing full well it would mean they need to borrow money, handled northern rock differently, not reward bribes to parents, 2 examples cash for taking kid to gp and cash paid out for every new born child they both pointless benefits. Few examples there of wasting money.

[Derek]

Not an entirely bad speech today from him, although there was one line in it

Originally Posted by Gordon Brown

But you know, when it comes to public spending you can't just wave a magic wand to conjure up the money - not even with help from Harry Potter

Which I can't help but translate as.

"You think we've taxed the hell out of you so far? You ain't seen nothing yet"

[Sirius]

Gordon Brown has staked his claim to be the only man to steer Britain through tough economic times saying: "This is no time for a novice."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7630567.stm

No what we got instead was an unelected numpty and a bunch of yes men.

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek S

Not an entirely bad speech today from him, although there was one line in it



Which I can't help but translate as.

"You think we've taxed the hell out of you so far? You ain't seen nothing yet"

I have said it before when it comes to help from J. K. Rowling. Watch the new years honours, you can bet she will be in them.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Brown

So what happened with 10p, it stung me because it really hurt that suddenly people felt I wasn't on the side of people on middle and modest incomes

Oh we feel your pain Gordon, it stung you did it? Not half as hard as it stung the millions who had their income tax double, or the millions who will be paying for your bodged attempt to buy votes back.
Sorry, but the person who had "no idea" of the impact of removing the 10p rate is not someone I consider to be astute enough to lead the nation through the financial troubles we are now in, as demonstrated by the continued pledge to spend and borrow!
Labour ministers who claim you are the best person to get us through this are either incompetent or liars.
The only ones who may actually be honest are those who say you're the best the party has! Of course that doesn't say much for the rest of the party.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Oh we feel your pain Gordon, it stung you did it? Not half as hard as it stung the millions who had their income tax double, or the millions who will be paying for your bodged attempt to buy votes back.
Sorry, but the person who had "no idea" of the impact of removing the 10p rate is not someone I consider to be astute enough to lead the nation through the financial troubles we are now in, as demonstrated by the continued pledge to spend and borrow!
Labour ministers who claim you are the best person to get us through this are either incompetent or liars.
The only ones who may actually be honest are those who say you're the best the party has! Of course that doesn't say much for the rest of the party.

you've hit the nail on the head there

I like the thing about people being able to get any medication now, but I do hope they don't mean everyone for everything. Serious conditions only...