Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Page 733

smcicr · 03-07-2008, 10:11

Not sure if it's been posted here or not and not sure of the veracity either but I'm in something of a rush so I'll just chuck it out there - there has been an update on the VM intranet today suggesting that BT's trial is expected to start today (July 3rd) - anyone got anything more? seen any invites etc? The rest of the update reiterated VM's previous position that they will not proceed with Phorm unless completely satisfied that it complies with relevant acts / laws etc etc....

Dephormation · 03-07-2008, 10:18

I'm wondering if Phorm are pitching themselves for a voluntary takeover. I'll explain why that could be important momentarily.

They seem to be pushing the idea that there is some residual value in their intellectual property (if not their brand/track record) and their contracts with ISPs. And by implication, throwing themselves at Googles feet, to save their shirts.

Shares who cares?

I doubt anyone who did a technical due diligence on Phorm would come away with the idea that there was significant residual value in the technology. Particularly a firm the size of Google.

Rchivist · 03-07-2008, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by smcicr

Not sure if it's been posted here or not and not sure of the veracity either but I'm in something of a rush so I'll just chuck it out there - there has been an update on the VM intranet today suggesting that BT's trial is expected to start today (July 3rd) - anyone got anything more? seen any invites etc? The rest of the update reiterated VM's previous position that they will not proceed with Phorm unless completely satisfied that it complies with relevant acts / laws etc etc....

No sign of that here - BT are committed to giving 24 hours notice, although they may mean that in the sense of issuing a press release rather than informing customers - generally the BT way of doing things is to make a decision (a bad one) - then tell the press, then the customers find out from the press, then the customers ring the help desk who haven't been told, and then a few days later El Reg prints the full details. Then the CEO and the BT legal people and the technical people find out then they have lots of internal conference calls to sort out the mess. (but they fail)

The BT broadband status page and the internal support newsgroup have no information about this. I imagine it is yet another false start.

They would have to be really really stupid and suicidal to expose themselves to so much civil and criminal legal action while the ICO is still considering various complaints already in the pipeline, and just before the police file gets handed in on the 16th. Surely no one at BT is that stupid?

Expect the trials any time soon. I think they will definitely have happened by the end of March 2008.

madslug · 03-07-2008, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by isf

Every time Phorm get a PR release reprinted or a favorable writeup, we need to hammer the publisher with complaints. I think we can do much more damage to Phorm associates than we realise. Nobody wants to drink from a poison chalice!

Huntsworth are the parent company of Phorms PR firm.

Remember, there are libel laws in this country.

It is much easier to promote something to Joe Public by reinforcing the benefits of what people want and not by trying to tell them what they [should] need. Negative and flaming posts are what got campaigners the 'geeks' and 'flamers' tags in the first place and kept valid arguments out of the neutral press.

Post comments by all means. Replace negative comments with questions about the [negative] aspects of the articles so that the reader of your comment is enlightened into believing that they have come to the same conclusion [on the benefits, or lack thereof] as you.

tdadyslexia · 03-07-2008, 10:27

Admin Edit (Chris T): Please do not post about off-topic issues that the moderators have already advised should not be discussed in this thread.

03-07-2008, 10:45

[EDIT: I've removed the first couple of comments here as the post that I was responding to has been deleted. The rest of this post still makes sense (to me at least) if I explain that it concerns various suggestions not to respond to certain posts. Hope that's clear - Pete]

If we're not careful we play right into Phorm PR's hands - they've already tried to present those opposed to Webwise as a mob or as "Alex and his followers". This is only done so that they can represent us all as a single entity rather than as the many individuals with independant minds. There's a big difference between co-ordinated and controlled.

Having someone like HW here gives us a chance to dispell the myths and spin coming from Phorm HQ because his gullibility forces him to repeat all of Phorm's weak arguments and empty PR here. He plays into our hands and having him here is one of the best things that could have happened because everytime he posts more of Phorm's tripe it is quickly and decisively shown to be baseless and anyone visiting the forum will see just how empty Phorm's ideas pot really is.

His posts do more damage to Phorm's image than any number of posts saying "I don't want Phorm" and a few words of encouragement each day is a small price to pay for his invaluable assistance in promoting our cause.

Florence · 03-07-2008, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HamsterWheel

http://www.netimperative.com/news/20...t-all-bad-news

Like it or not chaps, Phorm is the way the internet is going.

Many thanks for a new avenue to follow hammy didn't know you cared

http://yedda.com/questions/Phorm_ill...6/?firstTime=1

03-07-2008, 11:08

I can't speak for "the populace" and I certainly haven't seen any research or surveys that support your claims of widespread support nor any comments or proposals from BT, VM or CW in which they have offered "a choice of cheaper broadband" related to the use of Webwise.

Perhaps you could post links to this information.

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Sorry to post back so quickly.

Just checked at Beta.bt.com and there's no new information regarding the next trial on the main forum or on the moderators announcements forum.

TheBruce1 · 03-07-2008, 11:19

I do hope HW stays around as he/she is actually making our case for us, he/she as a supporter of phorm cannot even answer basic questions like, how will phorm enhance my privacy, how does phorm dispose of my data, which method is used. I can only say that HW does not know and in actual fact, phorm does not enhance your privacy and they do not dispose of you data.

The internet survived before the greedy ones came along and it will survive after they are gone and if a few ISP go to the wall such as BT and VM because they are poorly managed, then so be it, its the customers you need to convince, not the ISP`s and without the customers, no ISP can survive.

I got a cracking deal from VM, 10MB broadband, unlimited calls all for less than Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£25, so if VM deploy phorm`s spyware, i will cancel and in the meantime i am saving money.

SimonHickling · 03-07-2008, 11:42

From the ICO this morning pointing me to their statement on the Phorm Webwise products and continuing

Quote:

The statement explains that as regards PECR internet service providers using traffic data in the Phorm products will need the consent of end users of their service which will be the subscriber to their service or other parties the subscriber allows to use the service. This does not extend to requiring the consent of website operators.

I think that the element that is relevant to you as a website provider is the extent to which the use of the Phorm products constitutes an interception of communication under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 which would require the consent of both parties to a communication. There has been extensive discussion in online forums and publications about the compliance of Phorm with RIPA and also copyright law. However these are not areas where the Information Commissioner has any remit which is explained in our statement.

BetBlowWhistler · 03-07-2008, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by HamsterWheel

not sure why you two are unwilling to discuss the comments in the story and seek instead just to discredit the author.
but I guess that is the way so many of you are approaching Phorm. Rather a naive approach I think.

Ok, I'll byte

how about this one..

Quote:

Recent rumours that Google was to introduce a phone that was free if users agreed to accept advertising, could be replicated in a situtation whereby ISPs could offer free broadband in return for users allowing them to sell their data. In theory, consumers could then compare their free service with a subscription one.

Which kind of suggests an OPT-IN service where the consumer is selling their data for a free broadband connection. This is so far away from what Phorm and BT are doing I don't see how the author of that article can turn it into a 'Phorm is good' piece. Unless you know differently HW.

Florence · 03-07-2008, 11:45

After following hammy's link I decided to post a few questions I am now waiting on replies..

Quote:

You have a child with their own computer, this child is not the ISP account holder a webwise page pops up this child spots the name webwise and associates this with the BBC program he uses at school so clicks to allow. This child has just been allowed to alter the T&C of the ISP account while under the age of being allowed to give informed consent, The ISP now is profiling a minor without parental consent, changed the customers T&C without his verifiaction. Would this fall into invaision of privacy since the person consenting was mislead by false advertising yes Phorm selected an alreadyb known and trusted name by children used by the BBC.

1. Would this be breaking the law?

2. Why does the account holder have to verify wioth password to login or even talk to the ISP about anything but a child can change the T&C without any way to verify it is the account holder?

3. Interception of the browser is illegal so how can Phorm suceed without breaking the law?

4.Websites you visit all have copyright you can visit but are not supposed to copy, proccess for material gain this phorm will do who wil pay the website owners for breaching their copyright?

5. Why will phorm not follow the robots.txt for its own instead of googles?

6. With such as google I can delete cookies and any tracking they are doing is stopped, with phorm it is on my connection so can never turn it off 100% have tot ake the word of one person who has no reputation since he has been hijaking browsers illegally for years would you trust this knowing that?

wecpc · 03-07-2008, 11:50

I have only just realised that as I have a Microsoft Home Server which holds all my media (music, photos, DVD's) and some personal information, which is all password protected for online access for my family when away from home, so will this be subject to PHORM's invasion.
Previously I was only thinking it affected full servers and not the home-brew variety. If that is the case what is the best way to prevent it, apart from obviously disabling the online access totally.

Colin

**Chris** · 03-07-2008, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wecpc

I have only just realised that as I have a Microsoft Home Server which holds all my media (music, photos, DVD's) and some personnel information, which is all password protected for online access for my family when away from home, so will this be subject to PHORM's invasion.
Previously I was only thinking it affected full servers and not the home-brew variety. If that is the case what is the best way to prevent it, apart from obviously disabling the online access totally.

Colin

Sorry to be picky, but do you mean personnel or personal? If the former, you need to be very careful about storing employees' information on a server that is open to access from the internet, unless you absolutely have to have it there ... I think whether Phorm can see that is the least of your worries. Data protection and all that.

wecpc · 03-07-2008, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris T

Sorry to be picky, but do you mean personnel or personal? If the former, you need to be very careful about storing employees' information on a server that is open to access from the internet, unless you absolutely have to have it there ... I think whether Phorm can see that is the least of your worries. Data protection and all that.

No sorry I mean't personal information (data files, spreadsheets, databases, MS Word files etc).

Colin