STM rates VM expect you to keep to

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by TraxData

Sure, people can start pcs, xbox360s etc and download overnight, but why should they?

As you know full well, because they signed up for a contended connection that isn't 'fat' enough to allow everyone to download at the advertised speeds at the same time.

Yes I know that it shouldn't be that way but the reality of VM's finances mean that is the position.

And no, the limits on all tiers are appalling, maybe if this was pre-2000 but come on file sizes are huge these days.

I usually download between 100-150GB/month and have hit the STM limits twice (once deliberately just to check it was working!) -- it's only appalling if you ignore the thresholds and/or have no patience.

Obviously, ymmv.

Originally Posted by Berealwith

Lol who gives a flying k anymore............i have found life again its when you press shut down and not restart ...........

What will you do when your new provider is oversubscribed just like all the others and it implements STM, and this will happen with all UK providers because the money is not their to increase capacity.

Originally Posted by ceedee

As you know full well, because they signed up for a contended connection that isn't 'fat' enough to allow everyone to download at the advertised speeds at the same time.

People are not asking to be able to download all the time are they?

They come home from work, they want to play a few demos, listen to a few streams, do the odd update...and for this, they get stm'd and classed as an "abuser" that's beyond unfair, it's downright atrocious.

That's what a normal user does these days, VM know this thus give them pathetic stm limits as a way to "force" them to upgrade to 20mbit which they dont need as they rarely download just like to do normal things, but they have no choice, win win for VM, lose lose for customers.

Especially ones who cannot afford it.

Yes I know that it shouldn't be that way but the reality of VM's finances mean that is the position.

VM's finances are fine, they are currently doing segment splitting on the network ready for docsis3, the matter here is they dont want customers to actually use any bandwith which they are paying for, and you can hardly say VM are in bad financial state when the bosses keep getting an extra 100k bonus every year.

I usually download between 100-150GB/month and have hit the STM limits twice (once deliberately just to check it was working!) -- it's only appalling if you ignore the thresholds and/or have no patience.

Obviously, ymmv.

You still dont get it, do you? people pay for a higher speed connection to get files faster, it's as simple as that, your not gonna pay £37/month to download files slower, patience? you dont need it, you have a high speed connection, you get your file fast, but now you dont, they make the download times nearly 4 x longer than it needs to be, sorry but that IS appalling, of course if you enjoy all day stm each to their own but VM's service is fast becoming pretty much useless, especially in 2 area's where overnight STM in play.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Sure, but how many do you need to do every day during STM periods?
No user is forced to download anything, normal browsing won't get anywhere near the STM limits and the internet isn't close to grinding to a halt as some would exaggerate. STM may be a pain in the backside but the new thresholds aren't so bad that you can't work within them.

All it takes is a little patience and everyone will have a 'decent' connection speed rather than very few getting 'very good' speeds. Is that so bad?

your totally missing the point trzdata sees the issue.

just simple browsing today can hit the low end very easily due to many website overly need to run flash websites. Some have no java flash but these are becoming very rare indead.

With broadband you can also get pop ups with video adverts not just pic based. Although many can be blocked there always 121 media/phorm type companies who make it hard to block.

Like traxdata says theres the common youtube, iplayer type usage which now becoming norm.

Before the ISP relied on % which hardly used there broadband to compensate heavy usage. They cant and should not now rely on this anymore. Each user should be deemed 50-75% usage user.

On timeline in downloads how many would be annoyed by the rule of download over the night for a big patch.

I would think many who go to the shops to buy a game. Come home install it run it get told there is new patch at 1.2gigs.

VM answer to it download it later why should they in most cases some games dont give you the option it just goes ahead with the download if it detects your online its not going to stop say hey your ISP is VM I will do it later outside there STM.

Thats the typical modern day now. People not going to wait play there new game tomorrow so they can download the patch during out of STM hours and why should they.

Get very popular new game such as GTA4 and it really does up the ante with many want patches on the release day or its first patch date.

Equally why should a person who say does just some browsing then once in while needs big file or goes over there allowance get shafted by VM. Who during other times been quite happy to see you pay for your service but mothball it. Like I said if they want to STM then they must give something back in return if you dont use your usage. Maybe upgrade your speed to the next tier for the same price your currently on for a day as reward.

Matter fact why do VM need to hurt its customers over those who cheat thief the bandwidth on dodgy modems.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by TraxData

People are not asking to be able to download all the time are they?

It's not a question of "all the time" but "at the same time" as I wrote.

They come home from work, they want to play a few demos, listen to a few streams, do the odd update...and for this, they get stm'd and classed as an "abuser" that's beyond unfair, it's downright atrocious.

That's what a normal user does these days, VM know this thus give them pathetic stm limits as a way to "force" them to upgrade to 20mbit which they dont need as they rarely download just like to do normal things, but they have no choice, win win for VM, lose lose for customers.

No choice but to upgrade to XL?
How about reducing what they download during the STM hours?
How about putting up with the STM'd speed reduction for a few hours after they've completed their downloads?
Alternatively they could always dump VM and switch to Be/O2 but I'm sure they'll have some form of traffic management before long...

VM's finances are fine, they are currently doing segment splitting on the network ready for docsis3, the matter here is they dont want customers to actually use any bandwith which they are paying for, and you can hardly say VM are in bad financial state when the bosses keep getting an extra 100k bonus every year.

Paying a few over-inflated bonuses to over-important (and in my opinion, completely useless) execs doesn't change the reality of their finances. And they're bloody awful!

You still dont get it, do you? people pay for a higher speed connection to get files faster, it's as simple as that, your not gonna pay £37/month to download files slower, patience? you dont need it, you have a high speed connection, you get your file fast, but now you dont, they make the download times nearly 4 x longer than it needs to be, sorry but that IS appalling, of course if you enjoy all day stm each to their own but VM's service is fast becoming pretty much useless, especially in 2 area's where overnight STM in play.

Your exaggerations are laughable, mate.
In another thread, I estimated that even allowing for overnight STM, an XL connection would still be able to download 115GB over a 24-hour period at an average rate of 10Mb/s. If that's "pretty much useless" then we'll see huge numbers of customers dump it in next quarters statistics.
Hopefully VM will learn their lesson and cancel the 50Mb/s service too.

Originally Posted by ceedee

It's not a question of "all the time" but "at the same time" as I wrote.

-rolls eyes- they dont affect the network enough to cause a problem, when setup properly they can do this and ample bandwith will still be available.

Only reason they cannot is VM have purposely oversubscribed, why should customers be penalised, for that?

No choice but to upgrade to XL?
How about reducing what they download during the STM hours?
How about putting up with the STM'd speed reduction for a few hours after they've completed their downloads?
Alternatively they could always dump VM and switch to Be/O2 but I'm sure they'll have some form of traffic management before long...

Yes no choice, reduce what they download? again why should they? they are paying for a connection to which they want to use, your comment here makes no sense? that goes back to putting xbox360 on overnight just to play a demo the next day, so much for files now! what about if you pay for a movie online? those links only work for 24 hours you know, want them to download that overnight as well? you fail to see that because everyone has shifted to heavy downloaders overnight we are having night STM as well, when should they download? In VM's eyes, never.

Paying a few over-inflated bonuses to over-important (and in my opinion, completely useless) execs doesn't change the reality of their finances. And they're bloody awful!

For a company of their size, their finances are nowhere near as bad as you think.

Your exaggerations are laughable, mate.
In another thread, I estimated that even allowing for overnight STM, an XL connection would still be able to download 115GB over a 24-hour period at an average rate of 10Mb/s. If that's "pretty much useless" then we'll see huge numbers of customers dump it in next quarters statistics.
Hopefully VM will learn their lesson and cancel the 50Mb/s service too.

Most would think yours are laugable, all because you dont really do anything with your connection doesnt mean others are the same.

Again you just do not get it at all, i hate to cause offense but read this slowly and clearly ceedee, STM does not at current affect downloaders as they just move to overnight downloading.

HOWEVER, normal users want to do the stuff i mentioned, they do not want to download 115GB over a 24 hour period, they want their demo their streams and so fourth, barely hitting 115GB/Month never mind 24 hours and it IS THEM who are being penalised and having half of their connection taken away from them, you sitting here and publishing "115GB/24 Hour Period" means literally nothing to normal web users, they aint heavy downloaders, do you get it, yet?

And yet they still get stm'd and get called "abusers" by VM, it's all a farce to get them to upgrade making them think they need to.

So yes, it is useless for normal users.

VM are not going to learn as their 50mbit has STM also.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by mertle

I would think many who go to the shops to buy a game. Come home install it run it get told there is new patch at 1.2gigs.

And there's nothing stopping them.
If they're on 10Mb/s then they may not be able to get their headline speed again for a couple of hours but it should still be adequate to browse websites, watch YouTube clips or play their new game online.

VM answer to it download it later why should they in most cases some games dont give you the option it just goes ahead with the download if it detects your online its not going to stop say hey your ISP is VM I will do it later outside there STM.

Once the update has downloaded (in about 10mins on 20Mb/s), an XL user would still have almost 2GB 'allowance' (assuming we're talking the 4-9pm slot) before their speed was restricted.

Thats the typical modern day now. People not going to wait play there new game tomorrow so they can download the patch during out of STM hours and why should they.

So it's okay to stamp their feet like spoilt children because after downloading a huge update during the busiest time of the day, their connection is slowed to what a couple of years ago was considered insanely fast?
Well, that's why I suggested that folk need to learn a little patience...

Equally why should a person who say does just some browsing then once in while needs big file or goes over there allowance get shafted by VM.

Getting their 20Mb/s connection reduced down to 5Mb/s is hardly "shafted" is it?
C'mon, enough of the "sky's falling in" exaggeration?

Originally Posted by ceedee

And there's nothing stopping them.
If they're on 10Mb/s then they may not be able to get their headline speed again for a couple of hours but it should still be adequate to browse websites, watch YouTube clips or play their new game online.

Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible and still goes back to the fact it forces the download to take 4x longer than it should do.

What about light users who have kids in the house? more than 1 PC on 5mbit that acts more like a 128K ISDN line, no thanks.

Youtube while your stm'd? that really is a laugh, everyone i know has huge buffering issues with youtube during STM because you go through a different route (go on, check it, look how many extra hops you do)

Once the update has downloaded (in about 10mins on 20Mb/s), an XL user would still have almost 2GB 'allowance' (assuming we're talking the 4-9pm slot) before their speed was restricted.

Normal users are not on XL package, are they?

You can hit STM in 17 minutes so your "2GB" is flawed.

And that 2GB can be hit easy just with a few iplayer shows, itunes, streaming etc, i'm still pretty sure u just dont realise how big files are in this day and age.

So it's okay to stamp their feet like spoilt children because after downloading a huge update during the busiest time of the day, their connection is slowed to what a couple of years ago was considered insanely fast?
Well, that's why I suggested that folk need to learn a little patience...

HUGE update? ok i just lost any respect for you, a 1.5GB is not huge anymore, it was in the 90s, today thats a normal filesize just for a demo, nevermind updates iplayer etc and everything else on time.

10am-3pm is peak hours/busiest time of the day is it? do you work for VM, you sound like their marketing stratergy group manager

Again, your not understand the basic concept that people want to use their connections when they are actually home, from work, to relax and play a demo, download something, whatever they need to do, they are paying to use a broadband service and they get -purposely- (and this is the difference here...) restricted, throttled and called an "abuser" for this, VM sold it as unlimited, you cant complain because customers want to use it as such..AND YET AGAIN i'm having to note to you that those apparent huge files are normal file sizes these days and of course they are going to want to use it during peak hours, there is nothing wrong with that.

Oh get real, again, file sizes have significently (sp) gone up in size over the years so you cannot compare the 2, we are not downloading 20mb files anymore

Getting their 20Mb/s connection reduced down to 5Mb/s is hardly "shafted" is it?
C'mon, enough of the "sky's falling in" exaggeration?

You think them taking 75% of your connection from you for 5 hours (or more, dependant on the time you hit the STM limits) is not being shafted? VM must love you as a customer, screw you over and you still happily pay

And again, for the record, it doesnt level out at 5Mbit and any sort of real web use becomes impossible due to response times/pings and such.

So C'mon enough of the "OMG FILES ARE 5MB! anything else is huge" attitude and come into the 21st century

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by TraxData

-rolls eyes- they dont affect the network enough to cause a problem, when setup properly they can do this and ample bandwith will still be available.

A working example of how the network could handle a large number of subscribers using their full bandwidth would be useful.

Yes no choice, reduce what they download? again why should they? they are paying for a connection to which they want to use, your comment here makes no sense? that goes back to putting xbox360 on overnight just to play a demo the next day, so much for files now! what about if you pay for a movie online? those links only work for 24 hours you know, want them to download that overnight as well? you fail to see that because everyone has shifted to heavy downloaders overnight we are having night STM as well, when should they download? In VM's eyes, never.

You've again ignored that they're supplied with a contended connection.
I offered a number of "choices" that you claimed were not available. But of course it's completely impossible to play xbox online while STM'd and utterly unrealistic to watch the movie while STM'd?

Most would think yours are laugable, all because you dont really do anything with your connection doesnt mean others are the same.

Again you just do not get it at all, i hate to cause offense but read this slowly and clearly ceedee, STM does not at current affect downloaders as they just move to overnight downloading.

You think 100-150GB/month isn't using my connection?
The last I heard, the average data usage for a VM customer was 6GB/month.

HOWEVER, normal users want to do the stuff i mentioned, they do not want to download 115GB over a 24 hour period, they want their demo their streams and so fourth, barely hitting 115GB/Month never mind 24 hours and it IS THEM who are being penalised and having half of their connection taken away from them, you sitting here and publishing "115GB/24 Hour Period" means literally nothing to normal web users, they aint heavy downloaders, do you get it, yet?

Show me an XL user who's seriously affected by STM without any avoidable downloads that seriously couldn't be postponed until after 9pm and I'll begin to accept your assertion.
Or an 10Mb/s user who *needs* the full speed to download more than 1.2GB during the peak period?

And yet they still get stm'd and get called "abusers" by VM, it's all a farce to get them to upgrade making them think they need to.

I'm sure they'll be able to sue VM for such terrible emotional damage!

So yes, it is useless for normal users.
VM are not going to learn as their 50mbit has STM also.

If you seriously think that STM makes VM's services completely useless then I think we'd better agree to disagree, mate.
I'm certainly not happy that VM believe it's necessary and accept that working around the thresholds can be a pain but it's still way better than any other ISP's connection I've had in over 12 years.

---------- Post added at 23:57 ---------- Previous post was at 23:52 ----------

Originally Posted by TraxData

Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible

I really can't be bothered to argue when you make such ridiculous statements. I don't generally disagree with you but your attitude is impossible.

Originally Posted by ceedee

A working example of how the network could handle a large number of subscribers using their full bandwidth would be useful.

Google and wikipedia is your friend, i dont like lazy people, i really wonder how european isps go on with things with their ultra fast connections, even their adsl+2 whips the arse out of our apparently fibre optic cable connections.

You've again ignored that they're supplied with a contended connection.
I offered a number of "choices" that you claimed were not available. But of course it's completely impossible to play xbox online while STM'd and utterly unrealistic to watch the movie while STM'd?

And again you've ignored the fact STM cripples the connection especially if you have more than 1 PC in the house, watch the movie while stm'd? but it hasnt finished downloading yet because 50% of the connection just went walkies, so now your stuck with a download sucking all the connection and you cant do anything else for the most part, many people get dropouts on xbox online while being stm'd because pings go up.

So again, your the one not listening

You think 100-150GB/month isn't using my connection?
The last I heard, the average data usage for a VM customer was 6GB/month.

-rolls eyes- where did i say that? infact you just proved my point with your last bit of this message, 150GB/month dont mean anything to those people, they dont download much, they just want their xbox/streaming etc to work to which they have paid for (with network beneficials as a factor, of course), but if they dare do things they want to, VM cut half the connection away from them.

6GB/Month? your the first person i've met who believes VM on that point.

I really wish you had access to just how many people get stm'd, if you work it out over the network its MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher than 1/3/5% that VM keep claiming, why dont you see this reported then? as said before, VM dont let customers know about things, most people wouldnt go looking on the site when they see "unlimited" everywhere and navigating the VM site is bad anyway.

Show me an XL user who's seriously affected by STM without any avoidable downloads that seriously couldn't be postponed until after 9pm and I'll begin to accept your assertion.
Or an 10Mb/s user who *needs* the full speed to download more than 1.2GB during the peak period?

Funny, we were talking about normal web users, i have said before XL users who download alot just do it overnight, unsure as to why you've changed the subject to this?

But still, goes back to the point of the fact they shouldnt need it, it takes away the point of having a high speed connection when your not allowed to use it.

4-9PM i can somewhat understand for STM, but not the silly limits.

10am-3PM is just plain proof that STM has literally nothing to do with heavy downloaders but just VM making sure no one uses the bandwith.

As per your comment on 10/20mbit user who needs that bandwith during peak, quite alot, why do you think so many people get stm'd? people are at work during the day (and some people night) and only time they get to use their connection is during peak hours, dont start with leaving things on overnight, alot of people shouldnt have to, so what are you saying? because they are only at home during peak hours they should never ever ever ever download at all, naughty naughty people!

I'm sure they'll be able to sue VM for such terrible emotional damage!

Un needed? nice high maturity level here and has no revelence to the conversation.

If you seriously think that STM makes VM's services completely useless then I think we'd better agree to disagree, mate.
I'm certainly not happy that VM believe it's necessary and accept that working around the thresholds can be a pain but it's still way better than any other ISP's connection I've had in over 12 years.

Each persons needs are different, STM does cripple the connection to a worthless connection, googling up, reading other forums, the newsgroups and certain sites proves that.

If you look on VM's newsgroups, you get quite alot of people who find they go there and have no idea what STM is and cannot understand why their connections are so slow which in turn they complain and a tech gets sent out, only to find nothing wrong, why is this? because VM refuse to tell customers they even use STM, you dont see it on their adverts do you? remember VM have STM and a FUP on top (which is being put into play soon)

I wonder if you'll change your tune when you have all night STM as well (5mbit 24/7 for heavy downloaders i guess)

And the application throttling that will be turned on even out of STM hours.

Fun times ahead my friend.

Yes we better agree to disagree, i feel that your stuck in the 90s, but that's just my personal opinion to which we are as humans all entitled to.

That's the thing, you may think so, but there is a hell of alot of people who have ADSL+2 and are alot better off, with no stm, no application throttling etc, i know i was..and i'm certainly not close to my exchange.

So there you have it, at 150GB/month you'd class yourself as a "medium to heavy user" as you think most only do 6GB/Month...therefore VM suits you as per my whole point through this process is it doesnt affect people like you, its normal people who are at work all day and just want to use the net for a few hours at night who get shafted.

[Nilrem]

Originally Posted by TraxData

Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible and still goes back to the fact it forces the download to take 4x longer than it should do.

Oddly enough for the first time in my memory we got STM'd the other day - younger brother downloaded TF2 (1.8GB) whilst getting something else.

Even with the STM it was possible for 2 people to play TF2 online, one UO, and all to use various voice comms, the only problem was he had to shut down his background (slowish) uploads...

Even when STM'd there is enough bandwidth for "multitasking", just not downloading at high speeds and time critical things (gaming/voip)).

Originally Posted by Nilrem

Oddly enough for the first time in my memory we got STM'd the other day - younger brother downloaded TF2 (1.8GB) whilst getting something else.

Even with the STM it was possible for 2 people to play TF2 online, one UO, and all to use various voice comms, the only problem was he had to shut down his background (slowish) uploads...

Even when STM'd there is enough bandwidth for "multitasking", just not downloading at high speeds and time critical things (gaming/voip)).

And there is my point, i said multitasking, that is uploading as well

Your lucky to be in an area where STM works properly though.

Get stm'd here and as soon as you start a download/upload/do any sort of game online and it goes to dial up speeds!

Like this for alot of people

[Rone]

Its a good bit of working out, and worrying at the same time.

[broadbandbug]

Originally Posted by TraxData

And there is my point, i said multitasking, that is uploading as well

Your lucky to be in an area where STM works properly though.

Get stm'd here and as soon as you start a download/upload/do any sort of game online and it goes to dial up speeds!

Like this for alot of people

Trax, you keep saying that people would lol if they saw what % are actually impacted by STM.
Are you talking about per day, week, month what?
What % do you think are impacted and what are you using to provide that data?

Originally Posted by broadbandbug

Trax, you keep saying that people would lol if they saw what % are actually impacted by STM.
Are you talking about per day, week, month what?
What % do you think are impacted and what are you using to provide that data?

% per day, VM quote over the network the average is %1 per 10am-3pm (this is actually roughly true, most people aint at home then, except for hols)

AND 3-5% over the full network during 4pm-9pm.

I darent even try to work out what it would be per month/year.

I've been using multiple UBR stats to work out the %

Per day here for example 87% of people get stm'd, everyday and only 5% of them are 20mbit/XL users.

Sheffield was the worst with 96% getting stm'd daily.

From what i know most UBR's hang around the 50-70% of people getting stm'd everyday, this is mainly because of the pathetic limits they have on both of the lower tiers, so it really depends what stats they are going by (aka if they are just counting the XL customers) and so fourth.

But either way, their stats are wrong.

You also need to count in the fact Cisco's code just doesnt work properly at all and stm's people for no reason, then you have to count out the cloners, i know how VM came up with 3/5% and it's not exactly a representive view of customers as a whole.