Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[3x2]

"The ISPs are the Internet and they're being expected to roll out ever better networks to support functions that they do not gain from,"

The ISP's are utility providers. My electricity supplier doesn't make any money out of my TV viewing or my washing machine - why should they? I pay my ISP for Net access - how do they not gain? Content providers are at the mercy of the market - ISP's are the only ones guaranteed payment under all circumstances.

[SelfProtection]

"Talking about the Attack of the Clones" & or "Smoke & Mirrors"; we seem to have "a Gorilla Walking slowly across the stage in front of the Audience"

Name: phorm.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Aliases: www.phorm.com

Name: www.oix.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: www.webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: webwise.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Name: www.oix.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
I believe this is is a practive frowned on; cloning IP addresses on the WWW can lead to unwanted side affects!
"But the real kicker is which one of these Companies if not all have access to any details entered on the www.webwise.bt.com contact pages?" THAT IS WHICH ROUTER FOR THAT URL DO THE DETAILS CONNECT TO?

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

Originally Posted by SelfProtection

"Talk about the Attack of the Clones" & or "Smoke & Mirrors"; we seem to have "a Gorilla Walking slowly across the stage in front of the Audience"

Name: phorm.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Aliases: www.phorm.com

Name: www.oix.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: www.webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: webwise.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Name: www.oix.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
I believe this is is a practice frowned on; cloning IP addresses on the WWW can lead to unwanted side affects!
"But the real kicker is which one of these Companies if not all have access to any details entered on the www.webwise.bt.com contact pages?" THAT IS WHICH ROUTER FOR THAT URL DO THE DETAILS CONNECT TO?

[Florence]

Originally Posted by BetBlowWhistler

Contractors I would expect.

Also, re-aquainting myself with the diagrams shows that the ACE module simply hands off the http requests to the F5 L7 switches which seem to be doing the donkey work.

Something else has just occured to me. BT Retail are planning to phase out PSTN in favour of VoIP. What would you like to bet that this traffic will also end up being 'profiled'? Then it really will be *exactly* like tapping your phone connection.

I see another email winging its way to Ian I hadn't thought of that plus wouldn't phasing out pstn also mean that the equipment might not be compatable with the newer technology and cause issues in security?

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by SelfProtection

"Talking about the Attack of the Clones" & or "Smoke & Mirrors"; we seem to have "a Gorilla Walking slowly across the stage in front of the Audience"

Name: phorm.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Aliases: www.phorm.com

Name: www.oix.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: www.webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: webwise.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Name: www.oix.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
I believe this is is a practive frowned on; cloning IP addresses on the WWW can lead to unwanted side affects!
"But the real kicker is which one of these Companies if not all have access to any details entered on the www.webwise.bt.com contact pages?" THAT IS WHICH ROUTER FOR THAT URL DO THE DETAILS CONNECT TO?

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

you don't need to think about routers - you can just read BT's admission that the company which HAS had access to the information entered on BT Webwise contact.php forms was Phorm.

Email(s) received by me (and also Miles Golding over on BT Beta forums) in response to enquiries on that contact.php stated as follows: (see also my earlier posts with evidence of References header contents and FW in Subject line)

Dear Mr. Jones,

Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise <https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bt.com/webwise> ) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk.

In order to host the site on our behalf, Phorm have also been hosting a contact form. This required Phorm's systems to forward customer contact requests to BT for processing. It is not a requirement for us to obtain customer consent for this hosting and processing arrangement, but I can assure you that we comply with the relevant law. As of last week and as part of ongoing developments, we have amended the site so that it uses standard BT contact forms in place of the form hosted by Phorm.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

and

Dear Mr. Jones,

This email should be covered in the last email to this email address.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

________________________________

From: ***, **** on behalf of *****-webwise@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Thu 29/05/2008 07:27
To: BT Webwise Help Desk G
Subject: RE: BT.webwise.com Contact Request



Thank you for your reply.

Why does your reply contain the header
References: <**********.*************@ww3.phorm.com> ?

I thought I was talking to BT when I filled in this form. Has any of my
personally identifiable data gone to Phorm?

Are YOU Phorm?


and

Dear Mr. *****,

Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise <https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bt.com/webwise> ) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk.

In order to host the site on our behalf, Phorm have also been hosting a contact form. This required Phorm's systems to forward customer contact requests to BT for processing. It is not a requirement for us to obtain customer consent for this hosting and processing arrangement, but I can assure you that we comply with the relevant law. As of last week and as part of ongoing developments, we have amended the site so that it uses standard BT contact forms in place of the form hosted by Phorm.

The bt.com site includes functionality which enables it to remember users for the duration of their session (i.e. from when they sign in to when they close their web-browser), in order to provide a smoother customer experience and prevent the need to repeatedly log-in or re-state preferences. This is done by using a secure single-sign-on solution which employs cookies. The design of that system prevents unauthorised access to a user's logged-in session.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

Now add that lot to what Dephormation logs show, and to what BT WERE doing with Phorm via this site (but say they aren't doing any more) - and there is IMHO a case to take to the ICO for the Commissioner to suck on. Sould I send him a teething ring along with the letter - surely his teeth will grow through eventually?

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by R Jones

you don't need to think about routers - you can just read BT's admission that the company which HAS had access to the information entered on BT Webwise contact.php forms was Phorm.

Email(s) received by me (and also Miles Golding over on BT Beta forums) in response to enquiries on that contact.php stated as follows: (see also my earlier posts with evidence of References header contents and FW in Subject line)

Dear Mr. Jones,

Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise <https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bt.com/webwise> ) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk.

In order to host the site on our behalf, Phorm have also been hosting a contact form. This required Phorm's systems to forward customer contact requests to BT for processing. It is not a requirement for us to obtain customer consent for this hosting and processing arrangement, but I can assure you that we comply with the relevant law. As of last week and as part of ongoing developments, we have amended the site so that it uses standard BT contact forms in place of the form hosted by Phorm.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

and

Dear Mr. Jones,

This email should be covered in the last email to this email address.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

________________________________

From: ***, **** on behalf of *****-webwise@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Thu 29/05/2008 07:27
To: BT Webwise Help Desk G
Subject: RE: BT.webwise.com Contact Request



Thank you for your reply.

Why does your reply contain the header
References: <**********.*************@ww3.phorm.com> ?

I thought I was talking to BT when I filled in this form. Has any of my
personally identifiable data gone to Phorm?

Are YOU Phorm?


and

Dear Mr. *****,

Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise <https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bt.com/webwise> ) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk.

In order to host the site on our behalf, Phorm have also been hosting a contact form. This required Phorm's systems to forward customer contact requests to BT for processing. It is not a requirement for us to obtain customer consent for this hosting and processing arrangement, but I can assure you that we comply with the relevant law. As of last week and as part of ongoing developments, we have amended the site so that it uses standard BT contact forms in place of the form hosted by Phorm.

The bt.com site includes functionality which enables it to remember users for the duration of their session (i.e. from when they sign in to when they close their web-browser), in order to provide a smoother customer experience and prevent the need to repeatedly log-in or re-state preferences. This is done by using a secure single-sign-on solution which employs cookies. The design of that system prevents unauthorised access to a user's logged-in session.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

Now add that lot to what Dephormation logs show, and to what BT WERE doing with Phorm via this site (but say they aren't doing any more) - and there is IMHO a case to take to the ICO for the Commissioner to suck on. Sould I send him a teething ring along with the letter - surely his teeth will grow through eventually?

deja vous

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise <https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=https://mail.bt.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.bt.com/webwise> ) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk.

In order to host the site on our behalf, Phorm have also been hosting a contact form. This required Phorm's systems to forward customer contact requests to BT for processing. It is not a requirement for us to obtain customer consent for this hosting and processing arrangement, but I can assure you that we comply with the relevant law. As of last week and as part of ongoing developments, we have amended the site so that it uses standard BT contact forms in place of the form hosted by Phorm.

Regards,
BT Webwise Helpdesk

admittion that phorm have been hosting the site and had their hands on the data before forwarding it to bt

peter

my reply back to BT

*****************Thankyou for the reply but I still have the following outstanding queries

Why should I have to block cookies for a service I do not want and that invades my privacy by watching my browsing at network level.

I have 6 machines in my house why should I have to do this due to BT's and phorms lack of technical ability to provide a trial with correct authentication and safeguards in place that mean only the account holder has the ability to make the initial change to my T's and C's

How will I know if a subaccount holder has agreed to PHORM and changed my contract ?

BT should be making sure the trial is conducted in a way where the account holder only has authority to accept the service as it requires a change in the term and conditions of my contract with BT

When opted out is my web traffic still passed via a profiler (even if ignored) or my taffic profiled but no targeted adverts served to me, or is my traffic passed direct out onto the internet vai a different route thus bypassing the system altogether (unlikely as apparently I will get reminder adverts about webwise system being turned off and click here to turn it on?)

If I block the domain I will not be aware of when you start spying on my browsing

Can you confirm the statement earlier in the email from one of your colleagues that unless I agree to PHORM my terms and conditions will not alter, so I will not be allowed to terminate my contract due to material change to T's and C's?

If a subaccount holder accepts the change to my T's and C's during the trail how do I get it reverted to the original contract as they would not have had the correct authority to make this change

Does the trail require me to accept a new contract or is it only the full service when released

Regards
*****************************

[jelv]

Originally Posted by jelv

Can people go to http://www.webwise.com/privacy/index.html and then repeatedly click the bottom "You can choose" link.

I'm now seeing something very strange and wonder if others are seeing the same.

Originally Posted by Heed

Hehe, yeah, I get "not enabled", then "off", then "on" and then back to "not enabled".

That seems to have been changed today - the pages which said ON and OFF now 404.

I think we are keeping them hopping!

(Spotted by tdadyslexia)

[bluecar1]

got some discussion going on the bt page at III.co.uk

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...scussion&it=le

and someone has recomended my comment, also interesting comment

snip
I quote from the Chairman's blurb in the just received Annual review and Notice of Meeting:
"Being number one for service in our own sector is no longer good enough. We have to make outstanding customer service a differentiator for BT."
As far a i can see, they haven't been no. 1 for a long time. Two of the IT specialists in my local business club have strongly recommended me to stay away from BT because of their atrocious customer service to domestic consumers and small businesses. Are we about to re-elect a wafflemonger to the Board ?
Then there is the Phorm issue.
end snip

the message is starting to get through to investors

peter

[Rchivist]

As the regulators are not backing us at present, I think maybe we just have to embarrass BT as much as possible. Publicly humiliate them by exposing every underhand or ridiculous thing they do. Expose the shenanigans behind the scenes, the frantic changes to BT Webwise, all those shared IP's and make them look either silly or incompetent - not a difficult task really.

And make sure that people who have been "phormed" by Kent's PR juggernaut get told the truth.

I think the legal victory is a long way down the road and will need to wait until the ICO's milk teeth grow out. It's a PR battle at present.

[jelv]

I wonder if someone with an account on iii might like to post the following link:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&orderby=value

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/members/42897.html

PhormUKPRteam Last Activity: 13-05-2008 10:56

I think it's pretty obvious they couldn't stand the ridicule every time they logged in which is why they now are just watching as guests.

Come on PhormUKPRteam stop being cowards and log in - we know by the way you respond to issues raised in here that you are reading every post in this topic. You're fooling no-one by not logging in!

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by jelv

I wonder if someone with an account on iii might like to post the following link:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&orderby=value

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/members/42897.html

PhormUKPRteam Last Activity: 13-05-2008 10:56

I think it's pretty obvious they couldn't stand the ridicule every time they logged in which is why they now are just watching as guests.

Come on PhormUKPRteam stop being cowards and log in - we know by the way you respond to issues raised in here that you are reading every post in this topic. You're fooling no-one by not logging in!

a better one is http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...on&triggers=on

look at my comment on http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...le&submitted=1


phormpr don't want to come and play spoilsports

peter

[Florence]

Originally Posted by SelfProtection

"Talking about the Attack of the Clones" & or "Smoke & Mirrors"; we seem to have "a Gorilla Walking slowly across the stage in front of the Audience"

Name: phorm.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Aliases: www.phorm.com

Name: www.oix.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: www.webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.32, 89.145.112.31

Name: webwise.com
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32

Name: webwise.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
Name: www.oix.net
Addresses: 89.145.112.31, 89.145.112.32
I believe this is is a practive frowned on; cloning IP addresses on the WWW can lead to unwanted side affects!
"But the real kicker is which one of these Companies if not all have access to any details entered on the www.webwise.bt.com contact pages?" THAT IS WHICH ROUTER FOR THAT URL DO THE DETAILS CONNECT TO?

Might be worth keeping a close eye on these IP ranges as I have rocked the boat asking about the routers the contact us links to and about the WWW possible later issues.

[bluecar1]

may be getting investor attention

just posted by an investor over on bt page at iii

********
It takes years to establish a good reputation, and 5 minutes to lose it. If BT management means what it says in the Annual Review, then they should be staying well away from anything that gives the impression that BT is not a quality company. Action, not waffle, Mr Chairman !
**********

[BetBlowWhistler]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

may be getting investor attention

just posted by an investor over on bt page at iii

********
It takes years to establish a good reputation, and 5 minutes to lose it. If BT management means what it says in the Annual Review, then they should be staying well away from anything that gives the impression that BT is not a quality company. Action, not waffle, Mr Chairman !
**********

Bluecar1, I just read your comment on iii phrm.l page..

depends if you have any moreals or scrupples

sounds like a new breakfast cereal

[Florence]

Originally Posted by BetBlowWhistler

Bluecar1, I just read your comment on iii phrm.l page..



sounds like a new breakfast cereal

If it was a new breakfast cereal then the milk would be arsnick

ARSNICK is of two sorts. Naturall, or Artificial. Naturall is likewise two fould, the first is called Auripigmentum, the other Sandaracha. Auripigmentun is that Arsnick which is yellow, and in color resembles Gold; Sandaracha is of a brightish red colour. These are not only both of one kind, but also of one and the same quality. The Artificial Arsnick is likewise of two sorts, the one is very white and transparent like Chrystall, composed of Sandaracha, and Auripigmentum by sublimation. And this is by most, without any distinction, taken for Arsnick. The other is called Realgar and Risugallam, which is composed of Sulphur and Auripigmentum, or with the addition of Calx-vive, or Salt, or mixt, and burnt, or Calcined, &c. They are all four ranck poison, and being taken into the body, produce much alike the same symptoms.

[NTLVictim]

Originally Posted by BetBlowWhistler

sounds like a new breakfast cereal

...With added moral fibre?