Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Dephormation]

No. No. It can't be true.

It is a hoax. I'm not going to be taken in. Its a hoax. <fingers in ears>. LALALALALALA. ITS ALL A HOAX. I'm not fooled.

Because it simply can't be true.

No one trusted with operating a national network could possibly be this stupid.

Yet, apparently they are.

Pete.

[icsys]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

hang on a mo, what about DPA, no data being processed outside the EU????

opt-in / out being done outside EU ????

Are those ip addresses that resolve to ThePlanet.com in the US and Fasthosts here in the UK the locations of the servers to store the profiled data?

If the above is correct, it looks like Richard Clayton may not have been given the full facts again.
If so then the detail at para 71 in the Phorm explanatory document is wrong?

71. The Channel Server exists within each ISP....
72. Reason for not centralising the Channel server is because they were concerned about EU regulations regarding moving of personal data outside Europe

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by R Jones

There you go - scaremongering again. It's people like you who are holding the internet back.

i know i am scaremongering, good here isn't it

[Portly_Giraffe]

Originally Posted by mark777

EDIT : I see portly giraffe is logged in. Perhaps you might be prepared to host a checklist for willing people who are offered the trial on inphormationdesk?

Absolutely - if the experts here can pool their knowledge I'd be delighted to do just that.

Also, I'd quite like to put together a graphic of a world map with the various BT, Phorm and OIX servers shown and may come back for advice soon.

[bluecar1]

what we really need is a member of the old god squad who is good with miracles

[bluecar1]

see attached file, (think i did it right)

its a bt advert i have just seen, offering £50 cashback for signing up to bt broadband, must be having trouble with number of victims, sorry customers

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

Absolutely - if the experts here can pool their knowledge I'd be delighted to do just that.

Also, I'd quite like to put together a graphic of a world map with the various BT, Phorm and OIX servers shown and may come back for advice soon.

Brilliant - thanks Portly

On a general note, it seems to me that the trials are multi-faceted. It's not just about testing the technology or 'user experience' or even take up rates.

They seriously seem to be expecting to do all this and then turn around to the authorities and ask "was that legal?", "shall we have another go with something a bit different?"

I didn't think the law worked like that. If I went on the nick at Tesco's and pinched £100 worth, I don't think I would be allowed to walk away after telling them I will only try for £50 next time.

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by icsys

Are those ip addresses that resolve to ThePlanet.com in the US and Fasthosts here in the UK the locations of the servers to store the profiled data?

If the above is correct, it looks like Richard Clayton may not have been given the full facts again.
If so then the detail at para 71 in the Phorm explanatory document is wrong?

71. The Channel Server exists within each ISP....
72. Reason for not centralising the Channel server is because they were concerned about EU regulations regarding moving of personal data outside Europe

look at http://www.oix.com/about/introducing/OIX.html

this explains what the channel servers are and it would seem they are not controlled by BT or Phorm but seperate companies who are good at setting up the targeting of the adverts, or is it the servers are run by phorm and the third parties pay phorrm to let them setup the queries then the third party makes money by selling access to the queries they have written. it's not terribly clear,

where alex when you need him

[icsys]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

look at http://www.oix.com/about/introducing/OIX.html

this explains what the channel servers are and it would seem they are not controlled by BT or Phorm but seperate companies who are good at setting up the targeting of the adverts, or is it the servers are run by phorm and the third parties pay phorrm to let them setup the queries then the third party makes money by selling access to the queries they have written. it's not terribly clear,

where alex when you need him

That needs clarification... another set of lies?


Amazing...

webwise provides anti-phishing, yet when you visit www.bt.com/webwise you're being sent to the states to opt in/out. And this is hosted by ThePlanet Internet Services, Inc. listed as one of the top 10 phishing site host networks. http://www.phishtank.com/stats/2008/04/

classic.

[mark777]

I think it is really important that preparations for the trial are made. Only
10,000 people are required. BT are likely to have identified as many anti-
phormites as they can and I'm sure they will not be invited to take part.

It will not take very long for them to recruit 10,000 people, even if only
offered on one exchange. We may only get a small chance to get a couple of
sympathisers into the trial. We need to agree a checklist for these people so
that if they are non-technical, they can still collect as much information as
possible.

Everything we have done to date has been based upon what they have done in the past. It's our first chance to catch them at it.

Checklist - please add and adapt. This is just a starting point.

I realise people might not be willing to answer all these questions, but please
make a note of them anyway, even if you do not wish to pass the information on.

1) What page were you expecting when the invitation popped up? Was it your
home-page, if so, could you give the URL of your home page? Did it pop up as
soon as you opened your browser?

2) Did the invitation page have a URL? If so, what was it? You may be able to
get a URL for a page by right clicking on it and selecting 'properties'. Make a
note of it.

3) Please take a screen dump of the invitation page (CTL-Print Screen).
Paste it into a word (or wordpad or ??? document)

4) Please follow any links to further information and paste screen dumps into
the word document. If there is a URL, please note it.

5) Please follow any other links and do the same.

6) Please note your IP number and host by following this link

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/mi...?do=connection

Add this screen dump to your word document.

7) In windows, go to start menu and select Run. Enter cmd in the box. Click OK.
You should have a black window pop up. Type in :-

tracert bbc.co.uk

and press enter. You will see rows of data appear.

Highlight the rows with you mouse and press enter. Copy the contents of the
clipboard into your word document.

8) Go back to the trial invitation and opt-in (if you are willing).

9) Repeat step (7).

10) Browse a few pages. Visit cable forum!

11) Repeat step (7). Save your word document.

12) Register on cable forum and PM one of the following users to let them know you are in the trial and have information about the sign-up process.



This will benefit from lots of suggestions and perhaps the mods could act as a
clearing house for the data? Tech bods willing to analyse and follow up should make themselves known.

Whatever happens, people should be informed that much of this data is personal and they need to think before they pass it on.

Suggestions ?

EDIT : As an afterthought, if a BT user can explain how to renew their IP using the BT supplied equipment, many of the privacy issues are reduced, although IP at a given time is still recorded. (We are not Phorm!)

[Florence]

Originally Posted by mark777

I think it is really important that preparations for the trial are made. Only
10,000 people are required. BT are likely to have identified as many anti-
phormites as they can and I'm sure they will not be invited to take part.

It will not take very long for them to recruit 10,000 people, even if only
offered on one exchange. We may only get a small chance to get a couple of
sympathisers into the trial. We need to agree a checklist for these people so
that if they are non-technical, they can still collect as much information as
possible.

Everything we have done to date has been based upon what they have done in the past. It's our first chance to catch them at it.

Checklist - please add and adapt. This is just a starting point.

I realise people might not be willing to answer all these questions, but please
make a note of them anyway, even if you do not wish to pass the information on.

1) What page were you expecting when the invitation popped up? Was it your
home-page, if so, could you give the URL of your home page? Did it pop up as
soon as you opened your browser?

2) Did the invitation page have a URL? If so, what was it? You may be able to
get a URL for a page by right clicking on it and selecting 'properties'. Make a
note of it.

3) Please take a screen dump of the invitation page (CTL-Print Screen).
Paste it into a word (or wordpad or ??? document)

4) Please follow any links to further information and paste screen dumps into
the word document. If there is a URL, please note it.

5) Please follow any other links and do the same.

6) Please note your IP number and host by following this link

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/mi...?do=connection

Add this screen dump to your word document.

7) In windows, go to start menu and select Run. Enter cmd in the box. Click OK.
You should have a black window pop up. Type in :-

tracert bbc.co.uk

and press enter. You will see rows of data appear.

Highlight the rows with you mouse and press enter. Copy the contents of the
clipboard into your word document.

8) Go back to the trial invitation and opt-in (if you are willing).

9) Repeat step (7).

10) Browse a few pages. Visit cable forum!

11) Repeat step (7). Save your word document.

12) Register on cable forum and PM one of the following users to let them know you are in the trial and have information about the sign-up process.



This will benefit from lots of suggestions and perhaps the mods could act as a
clearing house for the data? Tech bods willing to analyse and follow up should make themselves known.

Whatever happens, people should be informed that much of this data is personal and they need to think before they pass it on.

Suggestions ?

Good idea I have copied this to post it on ISPreview to help get it to more people might get a few on there who will be wiling to do thses.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Just for completeness, with Dephormation's cunning new logging feature you see the redirects

Request Name: http://www.bt.com/webwise
Request Name: http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.php
Location Change: http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.php

for good measure, did anyone get some wireshark captures, as a baseline ,before, during, and after this maintenance?
http://www.wireshark.org/

what shows up on those redirects there btw , im not good with WS diagnostics but it seems (web)wise to use/collect them for several sessions, non the less, for any that do fully understand the wire....later.

perhaps even put them up onthe http://wiki.wireshark.org/SampleCaptures
wiki for others to look at and point for comments here.

http://search.virginmedia.com/result...shark+howto&cr=

---------- Post added at 02:01 ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 ----------

Originally Posted by R Jones

Yes - I've been pointing that out for weeks now!

And when you go to the Contact Us page there,
http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/contact.php
they ask for your BT phone account number, as well as your email address and phone number - most of which they say is "required" - and remember this is going to a NON BT site.

You really couldn't make this up - no one would believe you.

The really good bit was when FASTHOSTS had a major server glitch a few weeks ago. And BT Webwise pages went down with it. Sort of gave the game away.

I've sent off an email to BT again to ask about this FASTHOSTS/THEPLANETCOM stuff, to try and find out which bits of the pretty Webwise diagram are where. I doubt they will want to tell me.

more to the point, it's going outside the UK after giving the impression that its on and in the official internal UK BT network.

and remember they said it would stay there inside that internal BT network and never leave, more criminal lies......?

any data going/being exported outside the Uk, is NOT FULLY covered by the data protection act or the UK LAW, but mearly a contract, IF YOUR LUCKY, that BT have put in place to somewhat protect your personal data rights......

and suprise, suprise, it's not going to an EU country ,so the EU DP does not apply directly eather, but it is going to the US were the US Govt just love to peak and pop your data into their little database right alongside the Uk CCTV footage perhaps...

SERIOUSLY YOU BT customers CANT LET THAT GO BY almost UNNOTICED OR UNREPORTED......(other than here).

this BT exporting your data outside the UK in such a cavaler mannor (and perhaps criminal, given they give the impression they NEED this information and dont tell you its not and official BT run server or its going outside the internal BT network, never mind the Uk).

its a classic Phishing attack infact, report it NOW, but to who ? ,
BT that facilitate this attack, or Phorm that perpetrate the crime, not likely...

[Portly_Giraffe]

Looking at the IP addresses of the various domains, I would conclude that BT are using the long bank holiday weekend to rehost the Phorm service at Gyron Internet in London E14 on 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32 with backup for the most service-critical function (OIX) at Fasthosts on 88.208.250.85.

Any comments?

It certainly suggests that substantial parts of any Phorm system implemented by BT would not be hosted directly by BT though of course this may be consistent with the published design saved in a message a few thousand back from here.

Websites on one Gyron Internet server at 89.145.112.31:
blog.phorm.com
blog.webwise.com

Websites on two Gyron Internet servers at 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32:
www.121media.com
www.openinternetalliance.com
www.openinternetalliance.net
www.openinternetalliance.org
www.phorm.com
www.webwise.com
www.webwise.net
www.webwise.org
www.youcanoptout.com
www.youcanoptout.net
www.youcanoptout.org

Websites which now appear to be on two Gyron Internet servers at 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32 and one Fasthost server at 88.208.250.85:
www.oix.com
www.oix.net
(www.oix.org is already taken by a non-Phorm company)
www.openinternetexchange.com
www.openinternetexchange.net
www.openinternetexchange.org

Remaining at Fasthosts in Gloucester UK:
webwise.bt.com - maybe to be abandoned?
www.tecreports.co.uk - unrelated to Phorm

Remaining at ThePlanet.com in Houston TX:
www.webwise.bt.com
youcanoptin.com
youcanoptin.net
youcanoptin.org

Please correct this if I've misinterpreted anything.

It's strange that the youcanoptin domains have been left in the US while the youcanoptout domains have been moved to what appears to be the production site. Maybe the ICO should give a view?

[popper]

i bet many in the house of lords has a view or two about running a Uk based business collecting 70+% of the Uk BB users and exporting it in such as way as to hide the fact you "apt-in" (however than may be) you have your personal data directly stored in the/a US database, its set up exactly that way OP OC.

nothing random or mistaken there ,thats for sure... a clear violation of trust, or something far more sinister to recoop some of the lost cash their loosing on the Uk markets.

perhaps selling it as a side line to the highest bidders world wide....

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

Looking at the IP addresses of the various domains, I would conclude that BT are using the long bank holiday weekend to rehost the Phorm service at Gyron Internet in London E14 on 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32 with backup for the most service-critical function (OIX) at Fasthosts on 88.208.250.85.

Any comments?

It certainly suggests that substantial parts of any Phorm system implemented by BT would not be hosted directly by BT though of course this may be consistent with the published design saved in a message a few thousand back from here.

Websites on one Gyron Internet server at 89.145.112.31:
blog.phorm.com
blog.webwise.com

Websites on two Gyron Internet servers at 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32:
www.121media.com
www.openinternetalliance.com
www.openinternetalliance.net
www.openinternetalliance.org
www.phorm.com
www.webwise.com
www.webwise.net
www.webwise.org
www.youcanoptout.com
www.youcanoptout.net
www.youcanoptout.org

Websites which now appear to be on two Gyron Internet servers at 89.145.112.31 and 89.145.112.32 and one Fasthost server at 88.208.250.85:
www.oix.com
www.oix.net
(www.oix.org is already taken by a non-Phorm company)
www.openinternetexchange.com
www.openinternetexchange.net
www.openinternetexchange.org

Remaining at Fasthosts in Gloucester UK:
webwise.bt.com - maybe to be abandoned?
www.tecreports.co.uk - unrelated to Phorm

Remaining at ThePlanet.com in Houston TX:
www.webwise.bt.com
youcanoptin.com
youcanoptin.net
youcanoptin.org

Please correct this if I've misinterpreted anything.

It's strange that the youcanoptin domains have been left in the US while the youcanoptout domains have been moved to what appears to be the production site. Maybe the ICO should give a view?

If someone is willing to put together the technical IP stuff I am quite willing to turn it into an ICO complaint as a BT customer- based largely on the current BT Webwise Contact Us page.

I can handle the actual ICO complaint, but I need someone to put together the "technical" side of the complaint using that IP data.

Something along the lines of "when I go to my ISP page BT Webwise, to find out more about their Webwise service I am asked to fill out a Contact Form, and provide the following data...... I have been investigating the location of these pages and it turns out that.... (technical IP data).

Obviously some of these locations are outside the BT network, and some appear to be outside the UK. Also they do not appear to be under the control of BT Retail, who are responsible for my ISP. I am unaware of having been asked to agree to any changed privacy policy by my ISP since these pages became live. The BT privacy policy currently reads as follows....

I believe that my personal data is not being handled according the requirements of the DPA......"
copy to ICO and copy to BT Retail legal department?

Any further action presumably has to wait until someone has actually got onto Webwise trial.

I am also willing to put a single post, carefully worded to try and catch a few BT phish over on Beta forums who might be willing to help with the Webwise trial - same post on each of the help/support forums. I've done something similar before and I think it is time to do it again - there are about a dozen or so forums I could put a post into. Again all I need is a contact point for any interested BT customers to go to - not me because of other commitments coming up.