Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Frank Rizzo]

It is much harder to attack the enemy when there are those with considerable clout, money, and backing are doing all they can to defend it.

Your enemies friend is not your friend.

[piggy]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

Have any anon vm employee's came out with any posts on the matter anywhere? by the looks of things must be a big internal memo out at vm towers with a big URGENT do not mention phorm/webwise to customers on it.
Strange really as most of the ones with inside knowledge post about such matters as upgrades, stm without problem but phorm/webwise seems ohh so quiet for some reason and all the cogs and gears were nearly inplace.

if you were to take your tin hat off for a moment it could be quiet because there is nothing to report!! this thread is quickly losing credibility between us we seem to be doing the phormpr work for them,imo some posters are attacking the wrong people.

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by James_Firth

{ snip }
What the former Secretary of State for Health and BT board member has got to do with current policing decisions or influencing newspaper editors I don't know.

From what I know about politics a political party is a party of strong-minded individuals and equally strong-minded senior civil servants who wouldn't be at the beck and call of a colleague who has been out of office for the best part of a year.

I would however look to other high profile members of the media, including some Phorm directors, and view the issue as simply one of money talking.

You seem to have a great deal more confidence and respect for politicians than I do. Patricia Hewitt may not have much influence with newspaper editors but I would expect her to still have a great deal of influence with her colleagues and personally I doubt BT employed her for her managerial skills.

On another tangent, after reading the disturbing news that Phorm have gained membership of the anti-phishing working group I have emailed them regarding this concentrating on phorms past as 121 media, the apropos rootkit they wrote and also the illegal trials of 2006 and 2007. I did ask them for any comments they had on the matter and made it clear that I would publish any response I got unless asked not to. I suggest others email them too ( info at antiphishing org ).

Maybe if enough people email them they will reconsider Phorm membership and that would make a great story if the anti phishing working group were to withdraw their membership.

[GeordieF]

Long time lurker here. I`ve followed the thread in this forum among others with great interest since first reading about Phorm. As my BT contract is due to run out in June I intend jumping ship to another provider then. I emailed BT about their deployment of WebWise, however I think UKPRTeam answered it as not one of my questions were answered.
Anyhoo, just emailed antiphishing.org and awaiting a reply
Dear Sir/Madam,
It was with some dismay and shock that I noticed you carrying the logo of Phorm, (www.phorm.com), once known as 121Media, and renowned the world over for hard to remove spyware and rootkits. Surely there is a conflict of interest here, or is it a matter of money talks?
How a reputable organisation can allow such a company to become a member beggers belief!
It merely seems a case of Phorm paying membership fees to your organisation to gain a cloak of respectibility through being associated with many of the fine companies who DO care about malware and best practice.
With dismay
Geordie
At the worst antiphishing.org know I`m not happy about it. At the best they may reconsider their position.
GF

[Bonglet]

Well when virgin media reply to me in writing (as i asked) denying all the allegations i have put to them in 2 emails without recieving a reply and hearing a vm employee on the phone say to myself with my wife present in the room that trials were on the ex ntl pltform (which i also dont belive and told them this in my first follow up email) ill take my tin hat off ok.

Anyone that wishes to flame me in the event of making posts in this thread can pm me anytime they like instead of dismising me in this thread.

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by piggy

if you were to take your tin hat off for a moment it could be quiet because there is nothing to report!! this thread is quickly losing credibility between us we seem to be doing the phormpr work for them,imo some posters are attacking the wrong people.

Howdy piggy. I personally have written to Liberty, MP, MEPs, Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals, Earl of Northesk, Computer Crime Unit of the Metropolitan Police and now the anti phishing working group. Got any suggestions where else would be a good place to write?

By all means criticise if you think people are attacking the wrong people but its more helpful if you actually make suggestions of who we SHOULD blame/write to as well

[James_Firth]

Originally Posted by OF1975

You seem to have a great deal more confidence and respect for politicians than I do.

To some degree I do. I genuinely feel that most of the politicians I meet have the electorate's views and interests at heart. I also feel (above local level at least, but that's another story) that parliament is not corruptable to the degree that the press would have us believe.

That's not to say I don't have many issues with our democracy. The problem is that the electorate doesn't necessarily know what's good for the country as a whole in the long term, and it's up to parliament to debate that.

"The good of the country" is the argument that gets abused in issues like the Dodgy Dossier, Contra, BAE, and state surveillance.

It also gets abused in the guise of promoting and encouraging trade an innovation, hence Phorm's lack of opposition.

But there's enough good voices in parliament who, given suitable encouragement from the likes of us, will work for us.

I really don't believe that Patricia Hewitt's address book is any more effective at influencing government than William Hague's or Don Foster's or anyone who's spoken out against Phorm.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

Have any anon vm employee's came out with any posts on the matter anywhere? by the looks of things must be a big internal memo out at vm towers with a big URGENT do not mention phorm/webwise to customers on it.
Strange really as most of the ones with inside knowledge post about such matters as upgrades, stm without problem but phorm/webwise seems ohh so quiet for some reason and all the cogs and gears were nearly inplace.

Most VM employees have been posting on here for a while and most likely known to VM who they are so that could be diffucult.

Saying that I have a friend who has spoken to someone high up on VM techies and they said it is more when than if, they also said they wouldn't want to have to sort it out if it went tits up since it was a load of servers in a row.

From that I would say the servers are in place somewhere and have been seen by some employees. The upgrading all over the country would also make me feel a little uneasy as this could be how they are slipping these in at head ends.

I lost faith and trust in VM to look after my privacy so spoke with my money and moved, reviewed them on ISPreview so others looking for an ISP would be warned about the VM spyware.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by piggy

if you were to take your tin hat off for a moment it could be quiet because there is nothing to report!! this thread is quickly losing credibility between us we seem to be doing the phormpr work for them,imo some posters are attacking the wrong people.

In all due respect, I think it is important to keep the engine running when we are awaiting any further news. I don't think Bonglet meant to offend anybody, more possibly a plea to any VM employees who may be contemplating spilling a few beans. I also think what you said is correct regarding attacking wrong people, but I also think this also may apply to Bonglets 'tin hat' written by yourself.

United we stand, divided we will fall!

[OF1975]

I value your opinion and thoughts James and, although I agree in general with the gist of what you said, when it comes to patricia hewitt I disagree but then life would be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by ceedee

They already can -- that's what was behind RIPA.
But co-opting Phorm would enable them to detect keywords or access to specific websites across the entire datastream from participating ISPs.
(Some of which they allegedly can do already using the NSA's Echelon.)

Firstly Echelon is not NSA it is a joint project between several european countires the US and iirc Australia.

Secondly Echelon does not profile anything. It is a mass data gathering tool, all it does it warehouse the data other than that they data is only used when it is queried (usually based on national security issues or international terrorism). The data is not neatly categorised by person or anything like that, it is a chaotic data dump that takes time and effort to get any really usable information from it. At least that is my understanding of it and I have been reading as much as I can find about Echelon for several years now.

Finally even with Phorm in place the Police etc. would -still- require a warrant in order to access their technology otherwise even if they did find something it is unlikely the evidence would be admissible in court.

Alexander Hanff

[James_Firth]

Originally Posted by OF1975

I value your opinion and thoughts James and, although I agree in general with the gist of what you said, when it comes to patricia hewitt I disagree but then life would be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it?

It would indeed. In fact I have often had a change of opinion after engaging in debate, and one curious aspect of politics is the idea that changing ones mind (the fabled U-turn) or admitting mistakes had been made is seen as such a bad thing that the only course of action left is to carry on regardless.

The myth that any individual or organisation is infallible or that circumstances never arise that could not have previously been known or planned for is madness.

BT - VM - TT - there's no need to carry on regardless!

[OF1975]

Afternoon Alexander. Hope you managed to get some sleep and rest.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by James_Firth

With all due respect, when I last spoke to you regarding police action against BT you said you were biding your time for certain reasons. You are one of the few people with hard evidence of Phorming and also have good arguments to show how you were personally affected in terms of lost time and a new computer.

Meanwhile I have been in contact with 2 other individuals who had no evidence of Phorming who have literally had their allegations ignored by the police, given the lack of evidence, the lack of personal loss and access to sufficient resources to investigate (public interest argument).

If you haven't since approached the police, might I ask why not?

Frank, you're in a fantastic position to highlight BT's (and by extension, Phorm's) abuse of browser traffic privacy.
Even getting news articles published about an impending court case would significantly raise our profile and gain more supporters.

Please get in touch with Nick Bohm (from the UKCrypto mailing list and legal counsel to the FIPR), Chris Williams (The Register) and maybe even Simon (with his PI hat on!) with a view to getting your legal case against BT moving.

If you need support or advice, I'm sure everyone here will be happy to offer whatever they can.

Your enemies friend is not your friend.

So let's stick to those folk who have a track record in fighting for privacy issues?

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by GeordieF

Long time lurker here. I`ve followed the thread in this forum among others with great interest since first reading about Phorm. As my BT contract is due to run out in June I intend jumping ship to another provider then. I emailed BT about their deployment of WebWise, however I think UKPRTeam answered it as not one of my questions were answered.
Anyhoo, just emailed antiphishing.org and awaiting a reply
Dear Sir/Madam,
It was with some dismay and shock that I noticed you carrying the logo of Phorm, (www.phorm.com), once known as 121Media, and renowned the world over for hard to remove spyware and rootkits. Surely there is a conflict of interest here, or is it a matter of money talks?
How a reputable organisation can allow such a company to become a member beggers belief!
It merely seems a case of Phorm paying membership fees to your organisation to gain a cloak of respectibility through being associated with many of the fine companies who DO care about malware and best practice.
With dismay
Geordie
At the worst antiphishing.org know I`m not happy about it. At the best they may reconsider their position.
GF

GeordieF and I must say we both did the same thing at roughly the same time; namely contacting the anti phishing working group regarding Phorms membership. I really hope that others will follow suit. If enough people contact them regarding Phorm then maybe they will reconsider and that would make a great news story to batter Phorm with. Just imagine the headline on theregister:

"Anti-Phishing Working Group withdraws Phorm Membership"

That would be a nice concrete achievement if we could make it happen and would help to increase publicity and would be one more nail in the coffin.