Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Write to your MP
Write to your ISP
Spread the word on the web
Write to your EU representative
Sign the Downing Street petition
Serve a section 11 Data Protection Notice on your ISP
Ask everyone you know to do the same
And if you are lurking, sign up and get stuck in!

Whoops, still got to do: Write to your EU representative!
(How do I find out who that is?)

[Angry@VMedia]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Yes of course you can and VM are supposed to tell you when changes occur.

Alexander Hanff

Thanks for this, might come in handy later on when I tell virgin what to do with their spyware riddled "service"

[flashpaul]

There is an interesting article about internet privacy in the Sunday Times

Its written by Jonathan Zittrain , professor of internet governance and regulation ,see link below

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle3866927.ece

I wonder if anyone has contacted him regarding Phorm , I am sure he would have an opinion(negative hopefully)

I am sure Alexander has enough on his plate but it sounds like a job for him !

Here is some more info on Jonathan Zittrain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Zittrain

[Portly_Giraffe]

Originally Posted by warescouse

Whoops, still got to do: Write to your EU representative!
(How do I find out who that is?)

http://www.writetothem.com/

[popper]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

Groan. I didn't say it was "minor". I said there is a big world full of even nastier invasions out there. That doesn't diminish my focus on Phorm.

Sure, in the big scheme of things Phorm is relatively containable. I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that the prospect of mandatory population-wide DNA and biometric acquisition, wholesale data matching, ubiquitous identity demands, comprehensive government profiling, expanded police and security powers and mass pacification of the population weren't occupying my mind somewhat, but that doesn't mean I treat Phorm with any less regard as a privacy issue.

Simon

indeed Simon, you pick your battles wisely and you win..., you pick them badly and everyone losses, thats a fact, OC the most lost battles are the ones never seen, or under valued that are the real long term threat to this country.

if people dont have, and use extream vigilance in their own country, and instead shift the focus to the less fortunate countrys as being important, dont be suprised when your country becomes one of the worlds worst ranking countrys, using the high tech advances in net surveillance to undermine the many for the finantial benefits of the few (not to mention the shipping out of the countrys wealth on a massive scale to other countrys executives and companys....)


in other words, its clear the good and the great are used every day, by the corporations and power mongers to divert attention away from real threats in this world, and the Uk has for to long been ignored as a key player in this saveillance power game.

every single new small ignored step ( in the name of profit such as Phorm/ISP DPI kit) is still a step that much nearer to linking the high profile keys you outline above together, after all,without the wide spread data mining by any means available to them, they have no collective information power to wield.

while the PI talk up the high profile cases, there are masses of low level uptake of interception tech that will be far more damageing in the grand scheme, as it doesnt get challenged or talked about, Phorm and the ISP uptake is one such case, even if most people choose to ignore or subvert that that fact for whatever reasons they use to justify the case to themselves its less werthy.

in short, you are giving it a low rating in your grand scheme of things to do, but there are many people reading and contributing here that are on your side with regard to the grand PI etc schemes.

but we also understand the far greater power of the low level rated tech to take control without a fight.... if you see what i mean simon!

we can help you with all the fights for justice, not just the high profile ones you deem more valid, your not alone, but your continued lowering of the Phorm threat does nothing to win friends or influence people for the better, indeed you appear to not see it as any threat whatsoever, and cast it aside as a mear managable and "relatively containable" small problem, if you cant or wont see it for what it's long term potential is, than perhaps your not the man you were or are lost in the re-direction corporate mire that is unfolding....

http://www.privacyinternational.org/...D=x-347-559597
Leading surveillance societies in the EU and the World 2007
28/12/2007

The 2007 International Privacy Ranking

State of Privacy Map

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by OldBear

Thank you, Simon, that's good to hear. One of my concerns with Phorm is that it won't be minor but instead that it's the thin edge of what will be an ever increasing wedge.

Just out of interest, have PI looked at Phorm in a similar manner to that which they looked at the Google/Doubleclick deal?

PI looked at Google and Doubleclick because we've been following those organisations for years and know something about their infrastructure and core business. And, as JohnHorb pointed out, we published a broader overview of online advertising at http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

We (as PI) held off on commenting about Phorm (beyond saying that it should be opt in) and will continue to hold off until we understand the complete operating environment. Once the PIA is in the public domain PI can join other organisations in expressing a full and frank opinion.

Simon

[Florence]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

PI looked at Google and Doubleclick because we've been following those organisations for years and know something about their infrastructure and core business. And, as JohnHorb pointed out, we published a broader overview of online advertising at http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

We (as PI) held off on commenting about Phorm (beyond saying that it should be opt in) and will continue to hold off until we understand the complete operating environment. Once the PIA is in the public domain PI can join other organisations in expressing a full and frank opinion.

Simon

Yet you still didn't notice the main difference is they are reputable people at the helm also they do not have control over oour internet service.
I wouldn't allow them to monitor my searches if they wre also my ISP.

the fact if I see 10 adverts a month then I have had a bad month I was shocked to hear Kent say hundreds as to me that says his plan it so bombard us with adverts I do not pay for internet connection that is capped to have the bandwidth to be wasted on adverts.

Edited to add another thought.

At present the internet is supplied in a way that anyone caught downloading copyrighted games, movies etc the ISP is in the clear since they say they are the carrier not the content. Once this goes live anyone downloading copyrighted material the ISP then also becomes the accessory as they cannot plead they didn't know.

[popper]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

PI looked at Google and Doubleclick because we've been following those organisations for years and know something about their infrastructure and core business. And, as JohnHorb pointed out, we published a broader overview of online advertising at http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

We (as PI) held off on commenting about Phorm (beyond saying that it should be opt in) and will continue to hold off until we understand the complete operating environment. Once the PIA is in the public domain PI can join other organisations in expressing a full and frank opinion.

Simon

OC you already know that the reason your PIA has run past the April deadline you set is because that so called "the complete operating environment" keeps changing as we chat right here right now....

will it infact ever be seen as "the complete Operating Environment" that can be accurate for any long term assessment.

given your involvement in the short term lifecycle of 121/Phorm in the UK, it appears they have changed the phorm OE in several ways in just this short time scale.

sure we understand the PIA is there to help that evolving process, but the idea is you compleate your PIA, THEN they change the product for the better.

changeing the webwise product while you havent even got the final report out yet, or todays changed dataset and implimentation from the ISPs, how are you to be sure your report hasnt been made obsolete by next month or even week?.

dont you find it strange with your 8020 hat on , your being made to chase the webwise tail round and round, were you could have been using your PI hat, and cutting off the head, or at least getting the choke stick out and making the Phorm rabid dog far more managable...

[Bobcat]

Just a thought........
I don't understand any of the techie talk and I guess I don't really need to because I KNOW that I don't want Phorm/Webwise (or anything similar) affecting my ISPs service.
I pay a company to provide my electrical power as I do for gas, water, phone and internet connection. I would not expect or accept any 3rd party interference, for whatever reason, with the first four so why should it be thought of as even possibly acceptable that a 3rd party could be introduced to my PAID FOR internet connection?
Like most other posters here I used to ignore all adverts and in fact found some a real nuisance when browsing. Someone on here mentioned "Adblock Plus", for which many thanks, as now I see no adverts at all.
I've been trying to think of analogies to equal the imposition of Phorm/Webwise for the other services but apart from the introduction of flavours in the water supply or scents in the gas I'm stumped.
It's the downright cheek, the effrontery to presume that we would accept this intrusion into our lives without a murmur of dissent that gets to me. So a huge thank you to all of you who are fighting so hard on my and countless others behalf.

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

I've just been looking at a completely OT thread over on BT forums and noticed that folk on there were mentioning the proposed introduction of Phorm/Webwise as part of their disatisfaction with their service.
The word is obviously spreading at last to users of other forums.

[AndrewJ]

I am totally disgusted by this and support any action to stop it.

[Dephormation]

Another query for Simon 80/20.

Where does corporate privacy factor into your PIA? Corporations need a reasonable expectation of privacy to communicate with their customers, such as presentation of product/service information, product catalogues, pricing structures, customer searches, quotations, customers shopping baskets and orders ... stuff that (in general) isn't currently encrypted typically... and stuff that Phorm will therefore potentially gorge itself on.

You've indicated that you consider opt in to be critical for consumers, but online corporates (and content providers in general for that matter) have a right to privacy too... some of them big, some of them one man operations.

Is that a factor in your considerations? (It clearly isn't something Phorm want to consider, and something the Home Office didn't consider either).

Or is it time to buy shares in SSL certificate authorities? :o)

Pete.

[ginge51]

I cba reading all this thread so can someone tell me if this phom madness is still getting the go ahead?

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Just a thought........
I don't understand any of the techie talk and I guess I don't really need to because I KNOW that I don't want Phorm/Webwise (or anything similar) affecting my ISPs service.
I pay a company to provide my electrical power as I do for gas, water, phone and internet connection. I would not expect or accept any 3rd party interference, for whatever reason, with the first four so why should it be thought of as even possibly acceptable that a 3rd party could be introduced to my PAID FOR internet connection?
{ snip }

Not only that Bobcat but the ISPs themselves have often argued that they are just a "mere conduit" when it comes to their dealings with the RIAA, MPAA etc etc. They argue that they should not and cannot be responsible for what people do with their connections and use this "mere conduit" argument in defense of that. Contrast that with all this Phorm malarkey and the layer 7 DPI kit and it blows a huge hole in that argument.

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

<snip>
I've just been looking at a completely OT thread over on BT forums and noticed that folk on there were mentioning the proposed introduction of Phorm/Webwise as part of their disatisfaction with their service.
The word is obviously spreading at last to users of other forums.

Hi Bobcat, I'm assumming you're talking about this thread: http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0

It's not actually the BT folks catching up; the two original threads, http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=2612&tstart=0 and http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=2615&tstart=0 were closed and censored by the BT forum staff because they didn't like the questions we were asking.

You will actually find quite a few of the posters from over there posting over here.

OB

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by ginge51

I cba reading all this thread so can someone tell me if this phom madness is still getting the go ahead?

3 sec summary;

BT - Trials due in April (!), no criminal investigation into 2006/7 trials (yet)
Virgin -Trials expected, but seemingly getting jitters
TalkTalk - Opt in for consumers, no time scale for implementation, no opt in for content creators

Home Office/Police/ICO/DfBEER/MP - Silence or inaction

So effectively, yes its going ahead. But nothing has happened. If that makes sense.

Pete.