Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Pasanonic

cheers. What you are saying is I have no right to defend myself when being insulted?

Ban me by all means, no matter I'll leave you armchair warriors to your own devices. It's pathetic to be accused of infighting when only trying to uphold one's comments.

I don't think Mick will ban you (or me for that matter ). It would be a travesty if he did. Mick started this thread and it is vibrant through its many differing views. I've probably been a little bit woah! today and I apologise for that.

[warescouse]

Come on Pasanonic, lets get back on track ... ;-)

Let bygones be bygones and let us all unite to fight Kent from the Dark Side together.
May the force be with us!

[James_Firth]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

At the moment I'm trying to come to terms not just with these tectonic shifts within industry, but also the extraordinary chasm that is opening up between the ad market and the new regulatory regime.

I agree with the idea, that a profile is a brilliant way of making adverts relevant. The sticking point for me is and always will be the intra-ISP data gathering aspect.

If you believe that an IP stream is a rich source of information that ecapculates some of the most sensitive personal information about individuals, and you believe in the right to privacy in communications, which no doubt you do, then please ask yourself about the moral issue of allowing a company to harvest information from that stream.

Morally, if I’m against any person listening to my phone conversations, is it any different to consider that a machine should be classifying my web browsing stream?

The answer I came upon was: it depends. And what does it depend on? It depends on what the machine does and who has access to the output. But this question then always leads back to questions of regulatory controls and software validation – proving conclusively what the machine actually does.

If Phorm is allowed to install intra-ISP profiling equipment, others will follow suit. Which body in the UK has the capacity and expertise to oversee effectively this emerging market?

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

Enter the PIA into this equation. Please do not make the mistake of believing that the PIA is likely to be either judge or white knight. It is merely a process that will lead, we hope, both to greater clarification and to a better outcome for consumers.

I can't be the "hero" some of you would like me to be - at least, not as a result of doing a PIA. You may feel confident about some of the points I will make, but you may also be disappointed that some of my observations will be set against those tectonic shifts I mentioned earlier.

Simon

Is this the gentle let down?

Do you understand the frustrations some of us have over 80/20's task here?

The way I see it is that there is a dodgy dossier. You have been given the task of sexing it up.

[mark777]

@Simon

I don't think the 'tectonic shift' needs to be driven by a tap on my internet connection. We should never accept that and it is not inevitable.

They have to find a different way to run the innit-net, and leave the internet alone. Internet users will pay more. That should be the choice.

[manxminx]

Again, thank you Simon for your explanation and apology.

Well, I've watched the videos at http://tobymeres.net/. I have to admit, I'm very impressed with Kent. No matter what I might think of him, his technique and his product, he has total 100% belief and commitment. And that I just gotta admire.

Ali.

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo

Is this the gentle let down?

p.

No. Not at all.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by manxminx

Again, thank you Simon for your explanation and apology.

Well, I've watched the videos at http://tobymeres.net/. I have to admit, I'm very impressed with Kent. No matter what I might think of him, his technique and his product, he has total 100% belief and commitment. And that I just gotta admire.

Ali.

I would have 100% belief and commitment if I had all that money invested in a product. Even if it turned out to be dodgy!

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by mark777

@Simon

I don't think the 'tectonic shift' needs to be driven by a tap on my internet connection. We should never accept that and it is not inevitable.

They have to find a different way to run the innit-net, and leave the internet alone. Internet users will pay more. That should be the choice.

Exactly!

I'm sorry, Simon, but all I see you talk about above is the advertising industry. Most of the people here are technically savvy enough to know how to turn the ads off in their browsers so it's not the ads that worries us; what is worrying us is how your client (or is it partner?) Phorm intends to serve them. That's the issue here, not how much money everyone can make!

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

I'd appreciate the opportunity to make a few comments about the broader perspective here, while also conducting a little expectation management regarding the PIA.

Here's a bit of perspective for you Simon.

Ask yourself, fundamentally, what makes the internet so valuable?

The answer is easy. Its content. Its content freely given and freely received. Its content bought and paid for in some cases.

Its valuable content created, edited, categorised, ordered, arranged by people like me. Its social networking sites. Its ecommerce. Its online games.

Phorm steal *all* that content, and use it to profile, family, friends and customers. They steal *all* that content and use it to draw web browsers away from my sites.

Does anyone, apart from Kent Ertugrul and his OIX network advertisers, benefit from this unethical 'behavioural targeting' model?

Have you considered me as a stakeholder in this Simon? Both as a content creator and a content consumer?

So far - I don't think you have. And I do think you should.

It is certainly difficult to get 108 million instances of consent from web site creators. Does that make it unnecessary? Sadly not.

If you don't get that consent you will absolutely destroy the thing that made the internet valuable in the first place.

[serial]

Originally Posted by Mick

quite frankly I could discuss the fact that I want some hot weather, doesn't mean I will get it. Perhaps there is too many negative assumptions about the video - assumptions are the mother of all problems and falling out with each other solves nothing.

Though if someone told you that tomorrow the weather would be fine and in fact there were terrible storms, would you be happy? We have to wait, no point in speculating now, if the video comes out it's a bonus, if not, just another example of why Phorm can't be trusted with anything. A side effect of this is that 8020's reputation has also been tarnished.

[SimonHickling]

Following a stock text reply from BT with some bits about how they have no way of identifying the people involved in the trials, I had this thought -

If the privacy laws apply to the PEOPLE at the ends of the communication, what happens when I use a friends PC and they are opted-in? Or for that matter, as discussed previously, several members of the same household, with differing views on profiling?

If BT did move to a network based routing solution, their suggestion that people use different logins to their PC would not work.

A better way for them to do this (ethically) would be a piece of software on the client PC (a browser plug-in) which asks whenever the browser is opened, whether or not the user wants their browsing profiled. Of course that sounds too much like spy-ware, but would be much more acceptable to me if it was open about it.

I'm still confused with how this thing really works, as a web page producer. On one hand we have the spectre of deep packet inspection, and on the other suggestions that the robots.txt file can be set to keep them out (I will be asking the direct question regarding user-agent [again]). I'm sure I've seen something suggesting that they will cache the robots.txt file for 20 days. If this is the case then webmasters of the world need to know the agent string and the start date of the trials in order to avoid being intercepted.

I'm getting increasingly angry that this seems to be a case of a small number of big companies against a number of like minded individuals with no united voice. Where are the people who should be representing us? Talking to MPs is all well and good (and the right thing to do), but they will not get anything sorted out before the trials (and possibly the roll-out) start. Where is OFCOM?

I understand (I think) the reticence of the ICO and HO to get involved, but this is such a big thing that I would like to think that there is some similar body which is able to investigate this prior to it being rolled out. With the best will in the world I can't see any action being taken once it's out of the box.

Some truthful, spin-free answers would make my day.

Any way that's the end of my Saturday rant.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by SimonHickling

Following a stock text reply from BT with some bits about how they have no way of identifying the people involved in the trials, I had this thought -

If the privacy laws apply to the PEOPLE at the ends of the communication, what happens when I use a friends PC and they are opted-in? Or for that matter, as discussed previously, several members of the same household, with differing views on profiling?
cut...

In that case I would suggest: when in doubt, Opt out.

[SimonHickling]

Originally Posted by warescouse

In that case I would suggest: when in doubt, Opt out.

And there in lies the problem. I'm at a friend's house and I use there PC. I don't have the option to over-ride their opt-in, so my traffic is illegally intercepted.

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Here's a bit of perspective for you Simon.

Ask yourself, fundamentally, what makes the internet so valuable?

The answer is easy. Its content. Its content freely given and freely received. Its content bought and paid for in some cases.

Its valuable content created, edited, categorised, ordered, arranged by people like me. Its social networking sites. Its ecommerce. Its online games.

Phorm steal *all* that content, and use it to profile, family, friends and customers. They steal *all* that content and use it to draw web browsers away from my sites.

Does anyone, apart from Kent Ertugrul and his OIX network advertisers, benefit from this unethical 'behavioural targeting' model?

Have you considered me as a stakeholder in this Simon? Both as a content creator and a content consumer?

So far - I don't think you have. And I do think you should.

It is certainly difficult to get 108 million instances of consent from web site creators. Does that make it unnecessary? Sadly not.

If you don't get that consent you will absolutely destroy the thing that made the internet valuable in the first place.

Thank you for the primer on InfoEthics 1.0.1

However I wouldn't go around publishing presumptions about my priorities with regard to stakeholderage. You may end up feeling sheepish.

Simon