Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by Kursk

And, as I've said before, the PIA is bought and irrelevant; it won't include a list or the opinions of millions of people who feel their privacy is invaded so it can't be comprehensive.

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make any more relevant, accurate or truthful.

What leads you to believe that a PIA being paid for by it's subject makes it irrelevant?
Who else do you think is going to pay for Phorm's PIA?
Why do you believe that it's necessary for the PIA to contain "the opinions of millions" to be comprehensive, and by extension legitimate?

Perhaps you'd be good enough to quote relevant sections from the ICO's handbook within your answers?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make any more relevant, accurate or truthful.

What leads you to believe that a PIA being paid for by it's subject makes it irrelevant?
Who else do you think is going to pay for Phorm's PIA?
Why do you believe that it's necessary for the PIA to contain "the opinions of millions" to be comprehensive, and by extension legitimate?

Perhaps you'd be good enough to quote relevant sections from the ICO's handbook within your answers?

Exactly, someone has to do the PIA and to be honest I would rather that task landed at the feet of one of the worlds most reputable privacy advocates than some unknown startup which exists purely to cash in on the ICO recommendations.

Alexander Hanff

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make any more relevant, accurate or truthful.

What leads you to believe that a PIA being paid for by it's subject makes it irrelevant?
Who else do you think is going to pay for Phorm's PIA?
Why do you believe that it's necessary for the PIA to contain "the opinions of millions" to be comprehensive, and by extension legitimate?

Perhaps you'd be good enough to quote relevant sections from the ICO's handbook within your answers?

I didn't say it did. I was mimicking CaptJamieHunter's turn of phrase hence the italics. Duh.

I am stating my opinions; I don't ask that you accept them. Others might.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Exactly, someone has to do the PIA and to be honest I would rather that task landed at the feet of one of the worlds most reputable privacy advocates than some unknown startup which exists purely to cash in on the ICO recommendations.

Alexander Hanff

Sez who?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I didn't say it did. I was mimicking CaptJamieHunter's turn of phrase hence the italics. Duh.

I am stating my opinions; I don't ask that you accept them. Others might.

Sez who?

Well Black Hat for one:

Simon Davies is widely acknowledged as the world’s foremost privacy advocate. His work in the fields of civil rights, consumer protection and technology policy has spanned almost twenty years. Simon is perhaps best known as the founder and Director of the watchdog group Privacy International, but is also an academic, journalist, broadcaster and author.

Simon has worked extensively in more than 40 countries on issues ranging from national security, media privacy and human rights reform, through to international law and government data systems. He is the author of five books and more than a thousand articles, and writes regularly for publications such as the Los Angeles Times, the New York Daily News, the San Francisco Chronicle, Wired, The Daily Telegraph (London), The Guardian, The International Herald Tribune and the Sunday Times.

Simon has been a Visiting Law Fellow at both the University of Greenwich and the University of Essex, and since 1997 has been Visiting Fellow in the Department of Information Systems in the London School of Economics.

He has also advised a wide range of corporate, government and professional bodies including UNESCO, the European Parliament, the British Medical Association, UNISYS, the RAND Corporation, IBM and the UK Government.

Source: http://www.blackhat.com/html/bh-euro...-speakers.html

Alexander Hanff

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Well Black Hat for one:

Source: http://www.blackhat.com/html/bh-euro...-speakers.html

Alexander Hanff

And Black Hat are?

[AlexanderHanff]

I am not going to continue this any further. If you want to know who Black Hat are go and look them up.

Respectfully,

Alexander Hanff

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

I am not going to continue this any further. If you want to know who Black Hat are go and look them up.

Respectfully,

Alexander Hanff

In other words, they are noone. They could be your next door neighbour. So there is no proof of credibility in any "privacy advocate".

There's become a tendency on this forum for the views of anyone but a small clique to be disregarded. It happened recently to The Jackal who is an interesting and intelligent person but whose opinions were dismissed for being different to those of others.

Get a grip. This is a forum not a stage. I'll be back, have to go eat

[CaptJamieHunter]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Fine. Seems a waste of time meeting with him and writing to him then.

And, as I've said before, the PIA is bought and irrelevant; it won't include a list or the opinions of millions of people who feel their privacy is invaded so it can't be comprehensive.

Btw, you did know he was on the 80/20 advisory group didn't you?

That's your opinion and if you're happy to do nothing then that's your call. Just sit back, do nothing and moan when the PIA comes out. Are you going to engage with the PIA process? I am. At length.

What have you actually done to educate people on this issue? What have you done to spread the word about Phorm and its threat to privacy? Please offer your credentials here.

Yes, I did know he was on the 80/20 advisory group thank you very much.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Kursk

In other words, they are noone. They could be your next door neighbour. So there is no proof of credibility in any "privacy advocate".

There's become a tendency on this forum for the views of anyone but a small clique to be disregarded. It happened recently to The Jackal who is an interesting and intelligent person but whose opinions were dismissed for being different to those of others.

Get a grip. This is a forum not a stage. I'll be back, have to go eat

Black Hat organise some of the worlds biggest and most respected security conferences including DEFCON and the Black Hat conference itself. It is not a case of people trying to ignore your view, it is a case of we don't agree with it. You are entitled to have that opinion, but it is not one I agree with, yet you persist in bringing it up time and time again. I find your opinion destructive to the entire process and bound in nothing more than your dislike for 80/20 Thinking. It is not progressive and it doesn't help.

As I said, you are perfectly entitled to that opinion, but you can't expect me to continue to discuss the same points over and over again when I simply don't agree.

Alexander Hanff

[Russ]

Guys if people can't be civil then simply stop posting here. I'll be monitoring this thread and if people can't be a bit more mature then infractions will be dished out.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by popper

well i will post here as its not going to go missing and its easyer to reference later for searching then, although im not sure why Rjones didnt do it himself,but no matter.

R you do know this cable forum IS NOT an official Virgin Media Broadband site, as in NOT supported by VM,run for VM or run by VM dont you?.
snip

I'm being careful! And the traffic on our BT Beta forums has been falling recently, we need posts there, as the moderators have been locking Webwise threads and if we don't keep the current one (the only one permitted on Websise) up to the top of the thread list by posting, no one is going to see it!

Anyway - just to say that I have now posted my own reactions to those BT management replies to my questions over on BT Beta Forums here
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=18307#18307

And thanks for the clarification about the nature of this forum - I did think it was a VM one so I now sit corrected.

Keep up the good fight people!

[AlexanderHanff]

Good post R Jones

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by Kursk

In other words, they are noone. They could be your next door neighbour. So there is no proof of credibility in any "privacy advocate".

There's become a tendency on this forum for the views of anyone but a small clique to be disregarded. It happened recently to The Jackal who is an interesting and intelligent person but whose opinions were dismissed for being different to those of others.

Get a grip. This is a forum not a stage. I'll be back, have to go eat

Kursk, vis-a-vis the jackal, it wasn't his opinions that I disregarded or disliked but the way he put those across in ways that i viewed as deliberately provocative and inflammatory. Sadly I did no better and responded by telling him to shut up.

I am afraid when it comes to Simon Davies, I agree with Alexander. Even if we accept that maybe he could have picked his client more carefully in this instance, you cant just disregard what he has achieved over 20 years of advocacy on privacy and liberties.

Initially I too was very angry with Simon and accused him of a conflict of interest in the comments section of the register. He very politely yet forcefully put his case in response to me and others who questioned him in that regard and I respect him even more for that.

Having gone back and rewatched the video of Simon at the Phorm meeting I remain of the opinion that we should wait for the full video version of the meeting and also for the full PIA before we condemn him for his actions in this. His previous body of work and advocacy surely earn him that right?

[CaptJamieHunter]

As we know via UKCrypto (and my own mail), the ICO seem to have got round to responding to requests for investigations.

Has anyone else here asked the ICO to investigate Phorm and the tie up with the ISPs or the BT secret tests? If they have then have they received a reply from the ICO?

Interested to see how many "cases" the ICO are dealing with on this issue.

It's also interesting how Phorm's PR people have been unusually quiet since the videos went up.

[rossco555]

Talk about divide and conquer!! If Phorm are monitoring some of these responses, they'll be grinning from ear to ear.

We MUST be united in a common resolve. If there are inflammatory remarks made, I would suggest it would probably be better to PM people than open flame wars?

Keep spreading the word and we will get there in the end, but not by open warfare amongst ourselves.

All I'm saying is think before you post, as there always seems to be more 'guests' than members on this topic.