Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Pasanonic]

I really must go to bed now but if Alexander returns tomorrow before his 1pm lecture can someone remind him that as the press and TV will be there he might want to have a good number of reproductions of his dissertation paper available for people to read? Even should he arrive late ( and I hope this is not the case as I think that the organisers would welcome a chance to exclude him ) then his paper is fine reading for the press before they make any reports.

Goodnight all.

Craig,

[3x2]

Jeez - you go away for a few hours and ...

Dephormation : Can I join you lot instead?

Why yes - There is, of course, an entry examination. However, having looked at your CV , the committee feels that your application would be successful.

Phorm has initially populated the OIX with data gathered from BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse on users’ Internet browsing habits.

More than interesting if true.

1) BT et al (including VM) were all running illegal trials.
2) Said Pimps were not running illegal trials but "data gathered" was already to hand - err.. from what pre-existing system?
3) Like all the illegal activities of BT (et al?) - they only involved a statistically insignificant number of offences and so they should not be prosecuted.

thanks Pheonix labs, still no working version for us Vista users I note

Look, I can't stress this enough - defence against the coming Phorm is not an option. Working out how successful your bomb shelter might be is an admission that you will be bombed.

AH and your "reply" (where to start?)

Thank you for your email and of course I am disappointed to hear about the proposed subject of your dissertation.

I imagine you are!

As you know BT has confirmed that we conducted two *small scale* technical tests of a prototype advertising platform, one during September - October 2006 and the other in June 2007. In each instance, a *small number of customers* on one Internet exchange

Last night I burgled only three houses. As you will agree, compared to the 25,000,000 homes I could have burgled, this is indeed a small scale burglary and therefore I shouldn't be prosecuted. Unfortunately I was caught and have to now stand trial. Not to worry - I fully intend to produce you in my defence.

Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this test. BT has no way of knowing - because the trial was completely anonymous

A feature you seem to be relying on in your "we don't know who we wire-tapped" defence. Nice - the prosecution can't produce a body - therefore no crime.

before any new technologies are deployed

Err... that would be your new technology "BT Webwise helps to increase your protection against online fraud and make your Internet browsing more relevant." (by wire-tapping your Internet communications in perpetuity)

BT took legal advice at the time, both BT and Phorm have obtained extensive legal and other external advice on Webwise functionality over the last two years.

Would you care to publish the names and/or companies that this legal advice came from?

Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment

Given that you cannot be trusted to even "fess up" to your prior activities - what guarantees do your customers get that this will be the case?

lets see... We (BT et al) were approached by a spyware company who pointed out that the only reason their last venture failed was that "consumers" could get rid of their wares using any reasonable virus scanner. You, BT, felt that their latest scam - putting their wares into your exchanges, away from the virus scanner, was indeed a great idea so long as your cut of the proceeds was right. You then go on to break all "consumer" trust (and perhaps more than a few laws) testing this new "cash cow" - and you get caught. Just to be clear here, you now want us to trust you when you say .. everything is OK - trust us .. insignificant..<blah> ...

You do of course realise that Phorm (and by extension you) have no business plan if we "will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment" having opted out.

They have sold this to you and their customers based on everyone being "in". let's face it, on asking "do you want your net connection wire-tapped?" is unlikely to get a great response.

The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly.

No - they won't. What you are suggesting is that your illegal activities can be nullified by simply unilaterally changing a contract.

You have gotten away with changes to T&C mid contract for far too long. Your latest scam has shown your customers that, like any other business contract, you cannot unilaterally change the terms mid stream. Lets face it where would our entire business led system be if I could just change a contract to suit my ends at any point in the future. "Dear Bank, I now no longer wish to pay you X% interest on my loan, it simply doesn't suit my current lifestyle - signed me." Err... don't think so.

we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

Wait one moment... I was under the impression that "Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment". Perhaps someone else should read your statements before you publish them? Contrary to your earlier statement we will indeed "come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment" but you are "working on" an alternative?

I should also stress that prior to the announcement BT thoroughly researched Webwise and was encouraged by the very positive consumer response to the service.

May we see the "thorough research" you know, terms of reference, questions, sample size, your conclusions, anything really because I have some "research" that says you are wrong. I can't produce it here on an open forum of course because that would be just stupid.

Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us

Yea, we can see that. I generally wire-tap my customers when the need arises. Business is business after all.

Information on users’ browsing is completely anonymous. The system doesn't store personally identifiable information, doesn't store URLs, IP addresses

No, after all, only you have information such as IP addresses or postal addresses and we really trust you not to link the two. The same way we trust you not to wire tap our connections (then lie about it) and give the results to a spyware company. Yep, you have convinced me.

Webwise does not scan webmail pages so our customers emails on <...> are not scanned.

So that would be all the companies that are big enough to take you to court and destroy you. However, what about my service providers? Am I to take it that if they are not in the big league then who cares? There is in fact no way you can "blacklist" the millions of "sensitive" services that move across port 80.

No data is passed outside of BT's network

So what is Phorm for - just dump them and run the whole system internally, yourselves.

Webwise privacy standards have been verified by <....>

Are the named entities like the legal opinion that you purchased around the same time? Can you get your money back?
Mirror mirror on the wall ...

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests

Again - see earlier point - where can we view the "research". I know a guy who's "research" shows that "lots of people" would be keen to see all drugs made legal. I just don't know who is right anymore.

- signed confused

[popper]

and portly's A4 versions for the flyer quick recap handouts perhaps with the added see Alexanders PDF paper for detail etc.

[Pasanonic]

Thanks for the comment replying to my mention that PG2 has no seeming working version for Vista users 3x2.

It had no bearing on this issue other than I'm a bit ****ed off that I've embraced Vista on most of my machines ( both 64 and 32 bit versions ) and I was just having a dig at the fact that some people don't seem to be trying to keep up.

If I must be drawn on the issue of PG2 I personally think it is a waste of time that does nothing to protect your internet privacy and everything to hinder your internet experience.

I just want developers to get on the Vista train. There will be little choice soon. ( It happened the same with XP and I was one who held out with Win98 because it is still one of the most stable OS' that was produced. However it took 3 years to gain that stability and XP the same.)

[unicus]

Originally Posted by Pasanonic

Thanks for the comment replying to my mention that PG2 has no seeming working version for Vista users 3x2.

It had no bearing on this issue other than I'm a bit ****ed off that I've embraced Vista on most of my machines ( both 64 and 32 bit versions ) and I was just having a dig at the fact that some people don't seem to be trying to keep up.

If I must be drawn on the issue of PG2 I personally think it is a waste of time that does nothing to protect your internet privacy and everything to hinder your internet experience.

I just want developers to get on the Vista train. There will be little choice soon. ( It happened the same with XP and I was one who held out with Win98 because it is still one of the most stable OS' that was produced. However it took 3 years to gain that stability and XP the same.)

I really wanted to embrace Vista but I gave up, life is too short. I'm back with XP and Ubuntu, and if the later sorts a few things out that'll be my main OS.

Anyway I hope the meeting goes well for the CF members attending, even if it had been in a better location I couldn't have made it as much as I'd like to have . Phorm may well see this as a PR stunt but their arrogance will hopefully be their downfall.

[Bonglet]

Couldnt agree more with all you posted 3x2 will be really interesting to find if vm ran secret trials sometime last year then they would have to come out and admit it themselves which should be fun to the vm brand.

[3x2]

I'm a bit behind - so excuse me.

Re: Vista / plugins / etc - just making the point that we shouldn't require them. I don't want Phorm in my system at all, I really shouldn't have to work around it.

Re: 80/20

Here's the reality. 52 people have signed up for tomorrow. Sure, some people will come without letting us know, but still more simply won't show.

Here's the reality - I can't get there, some of us have to work. Kent may have a private jet, millions of dollars, access to the media and a professional PR team - I don't. This sounds like a press conference.

There will be quite a few journalists present.

Are these the same "Journalists" we have seen to date? BBC technology (today) "CyberCarpet opens way to Pompeii" , "Why this cycling jacket changes colour" ,"Freediving with beluga whales" and of course "BT wire tap 40,000 customers". Oh no I made that last one up.

tomorrow's meeting will reflect that nationwide anger and frustration. That's the way politics and social reform have worked for some thousands of years. Whether from the soapbox or the valve radio, Personal anger needs to reflect in a public display.

Yes, I seem to remember a small matter of new bibles in a Scottish church ending with the Kings head rolling down a London street. We can only hope

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by 3x2

I'm a bit behind - so excuse me.

Re: Vista / plugins / etc - just making the point that we shouldn't require them. I don't want Phorm in my system at all, I really shouldn't have to work around it.

Re: 80/20



Here's the reality - I can't get there, some of us have to work. Kent may have a private jet, millions of dollars, access to the media and a professional PR team - I don't. This sounds like a press conference.



Are these the same "Journalists" we have seen to date? BBC technology (today) "CyberCarpet opens way to Pompeii" , "Why this cycling jacket changes colour" ,"Freediving with beluga whales" and of course "BT wire tap 40,000 customers". Oh no I made that last one up.



Yes, I seem to remember a small matter of new bibles in a Scottish church ending with the Kings head rolling down a London street. We can only hope

Yeah, you just keep on quaffing that wine and supping on those grapes. The Internet will set you free. No need to make any effort.

[3x2]

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Endorsed by Monty Burns (Oh OK, I added that bit)

[AlexanderHanff]

Simon,

I agree that 52 people is a pretty poor show, but you also need to understand that the meeting is in central London starting at 6:30pm. Most people finish work around 5-6pm so unless people are working in London it is going to be incredibly difficult for many people to get there.

The only reason I can get there is because I am a student and only have one lecture tomorrow, otherwise I wouldn't be there either.

Also please remember the notice of the event was relatively short, giving people precious little time to book holidays in order to attend the event. So I don't think it is fair to criticise the lack of attendance really. It would have been better to hold the event in a more central location (like Birmingham) during a weekend or maybe even the upcoming bank holiday, which I am sure would have attracted a far larger audience.

For anyone from this forum going to the meeting tomorrow a short description of me and what I intend to wear, so if people wish to have a chat they can.

I am in my early 30s, 5'10" with a broad build. My head is shaved and I wear black rectangular glasses. I will be wearing a dark suit with like blue pin stripes and a light coloured shirt/tie. I should hopefully also have a bundle of paper and camcorder + tripod.

I look forward to seeing some of you there. Now I really must finish the last part of this dissertation, so forgive me if I am slow responding to any questions over the next couple of hours.

Alexander Hanff

[3x2]

[Admin Edit: Offensive and Inappropriate comments deleted]

[AlexanderHanff]

3x2

Please there is no need for that sort of comment, it doesn't help us in any way at all and simply makes us look like a bunch of uneducated yobs. Let's try and keep a cool head and if you have a complaint or don't like something someone says, address the issue in a mature and respectful fashion.

My post above yours addresses the same issues but in a tone much more suitable to aid the discussions as opposed to alienate people.

Alexander Hanff

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by 3x2

Admin Edit

The reference to wine and grapes is a historical allusion to the fall of advanced empires in the face of enemy onslaught. Think, Rome.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by 3x2

Admin Edit

It's obviously a matter of opinion but from my perspective you seem ignorant, rude (as well as abusive) and incredibly aggressive towards Simon, who's already stated that he is taking no personal financial benefit from 80/20's work with Phorm.
As the saying goes, ymmv.

It's about time we looked at matters thru the other end of the telescope -- Simon's PIA could actually be our best bet to remove the worst excesses of Phorm's wire-tapping. And it's not too much of a flight of the imagination to suspect the final document could provide the evidence that'll defeat them.

Perhaps instead of character assassination and snide innuendo, our energies would be better spent carefully explaining the intricacies of Alexander's legal arguments?

[AlexanderHanff]

OK folks, I am kidding myself to think I am going to finish this paper tonight. I am going to finish putting together my questions for tomorrows meeting and then get a little rest before my lecture at 11. I do apologise for the delay, especially when there is so little left to write, but I am sure you can appreciate that getting prepared for this meeting is more important at this time and I should at least try to get some sleep tonight.

Alexander Hanff