Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[3x2]

Time to throw in the towel?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7331493.stm

In response to Dr Clayton's report, a spokesperson for Phorm said: "Our technology complies with all the appropriate UK laws - and we've consulted a range of experts on this.

"The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) was drafted in the earliest days of the internet. It is not designed to criminalise legitimate business activities - online targeted advertising is an accepted part of the internet landscape today."

Interesting point of view - our systems are fine - it's the the law that is wrong.



From day one I have viewed RIPA as the protection we have. The DPA reads more like a memorandum of understanding and so naturally this is what Phorm have used to defend themselves. RIPA on the other hand is clear in that it states that it is illegal to intercept my communications full stop. No woolly get out clauses - the very act of interception itself is illegal, how long the interception lasts or what is done with the results is irrelevant . Neither Phorm nor my ISP has any safe harbour for their interception under RIPA.

Here's the problem they have then. In order to discover that I have refused consent to the intercept they have to intercept my communication. The "spokesperson for Phorm" (and Presumably Phorm as a whole) seem to have now recognised this flaw in their system.

Sorry boys, "It is not designed to criminalise legitimate business activities" is your opinion and you are welcome to test it against what the law actually states.

[mark777]

I'm sure many of the laws regarding the postal system were originated in the 1800's, but we still use them to lock up postal workers who open our letters.

--

Thinking about things, 121Media must have scoured the planet a couple of years ago to find a dodgy ISP partner. They found BT and that's why we are the guinae pigs. How could we find out if BT is a major institutional shareholder in Phorm?

[SimonHickling]

Originally Posted by SimonHickling

I have resubmitted Alexander's original text and asked them to follow their own advice and check carefully the wording of the petition and compare it carefully with the text of the original ISPPHORM petition.

Originally Posted by OF1975

Please keep us inphormed (sorry!) Simon.

Well - As yet no word either way. It seems to have disappeared into the ether. What timescales have been seen for other people to have their petitions rejected?

[mark777]

The Downing Street Petition is at number 10 and in the next month or so, six petitions above are due to close.

It's going to be quite prominent on that site then.

[kt88man]

Originally Posted by mark777

How could we find out if BT is a major institutional shareholder in Phorm?

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/L...935&source=RNS

To be listed in a Notification of Holding needs a shareholding of 3% or more - So no, does not look like BT have a share of Phorm...

If we don't stop this now.....

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3688387.ece

[Ravenheart]

As many of us have said, the whole Phorm thing is the thin end of the wedge, if we don't do something now our internet services will be at a crawl, no matter what speed we have, as dozens of companies intercept our usage for their own money making ends.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by JohnHorb

If we don't stop this now.....
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3688387.ece

While I agree it's important to stop intrusive and insecure trawling of our browsing data, if Hitwise operates as described on Wikipedia then I'd guess that it's not in the same league as Phorm.

Mind you, some of the blurb on their website reads very similar to the Phorm BS to me!

At Hitwise, our DNA is based on three values: Integrity, Innovation and Exceptional Client Service. These values form the basis of everything we do – including how we interact with our clients - and are detailed in the Hitwise Client Commitment statement:
1. Integrity
* Clients will experience the highest levels of integrity, ethics and respect at all times from all Hitwise employees.
* Hitwise will always respect client privacy.
* Any sensitive information clients share with Hitwise is treated with strict confidentiality.
* We do what we say we will do.

This could be useful for concerned website owners (linked to from Richard Clayton's blog)

http://www.cs.washington.edu/researc...tripwires.html

[flowrebmit]

Originally Posted by ceedee

While I agree it's important to stop intrusive and insecure trawling of our browsing data, if Hitwise operates as described on Wikipedia then I'd guess that it's not in the same league as Phorm.
<snip>

It seems to be exactly the same from the point of view of interception of our data.

The analogy for our telephones would be if BT entered into a mutual contract with a firm that installed wire-tapping (bugging equipment) into the local telephone exchanges, so that they could monitor the number of BT customers that rang up businesses asking questions (i.e. our search terms) about product and services that we are interested in.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by manxminx

Hia Alexander, I've had a look at your blog at http://denyphorm.blogspot.com/ but can't find the Phorm reply you mention. Actually, there's nothing recent on that site. Am I looking in the wrong place?

Ali.

No it is there, I just haven't published it. Unlike Phorm I respect privacy and since they included an email address in the comment I won't publish it.

Alexander Hanff

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by flowrebmit

It seems to be exactly the same from the point of view of interception of our data.

The analogy for our telephones would be if BT entered into a mutual contract with a firm that installed wire-tapping (bugging equipment) into the local telephone exchanges, so that they could monitor the number of BT customers that rang up businesses asking questions (i.e. our search terms) about product and services that we are interested in.

Maybe I've misunderstood the basics of how Hitwise operates?
The difference that I'd consider makes Hitwise less dangerous than Phorm is that they only receive amalgamated data from the ISPs (rather than 'personalised and maybe anonymous' data for Phorm) and, for their saleable statistics, they're only interested in very large datasets.

I've no objection to, say, Amazon knowing that 10% of all VM users visited a bbc.co.uk webpage every day. Or that only 0.0001% (me) reads my blog every week...

I'd put that on about the same level as Google knowing almost every move I make!


Go on, burst my security bubble?

[Ravenheart]

Originally Posted by JohnHorb

This could be useful for concerned website owners (linked to from Richard Clayton's blog)

http://www.cs.washington.edu/researc...tripwires.html

Really interesting piece John, thanks for that (downloading the kit now)

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by JohnHorb

This could be useful for concerned website owners (linked to from Richard Clayton's blog)
http://www.cs.washington.edu/researc...tripwires.html

That looks very interesting to my relatively un-techie eye.

I wonder if something similar could be used to setup a webpage that could detect if a browser request was being hijacked by an ISP's Phorm server?
(I mean, Phorm repeatedly redirecting the request and forging cookies rather than it's ad server substituting adverts onto target webpages.)

All those of us who've sent in DPA notices will need a verifiable way to check that VM *aren't* processing our data!

[AlexanderHanff]

I have a much simpler method of making a web tripwire. With the beauty of AJAX it should be simple enough to generate an MD5 checksum for each individual web page then use AJAX to check if the page matches the MD5 checksum when it arrives at the users browser. If it doesn't match, simply place a HUGE RED "YOU ARE BEING SPIED ON!" banner at the top of the page

In fact it should be possible to create a firefox extension/addon to do it.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 ----------

On a side note, I slept soooooooooooo fine last night so I am nice and refreshed. I think I came up with an angle for the UK version of Computer Misuse Act 1990 in one of my dreams, I will be adding it to my article this afternoon. (Yes I actually dream about Phorm, I will do my penance later)