Chav/Charva *******s are taking over

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by frogstamper

What about the parents of these little thugs, I have read this entire thread and like in the newspapers as well it doesn't seem uncommon for kids of 10 to be out in large groups causing a nuisance. I say the police should take the little brats home and charge the parent with neglect, hit them in the pocket, because no child of ten should be out roaming the streets at night.

That's a pretty good argument!
Most kids I knew at 10 years old were in bed by 9/10pm not roaming the streets, so as you say, for a parent to allow their child out at that time of night it's pretty neglectful.

If a child these days decides they want to do something no matter what a pareant says exactly what powers are there that parents are ALLOWED to use anymore. It's all well and good shouting for parents to be hauled over for unruly kids and while there may be circumstances where a very small minority of parents have totally abandoned their responsibility it is by no means a general state of affairs.

What is a general state of affairs is parents feeling powerless to actually enforce rules in this day and age when kids are so suseptible to outside influence and that outside influence has changed a hell of a lot since i was a kid. Problems with anti social kids have more then one cause and therefore need more then one solution.

[tweetypie/8]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I am not exactly known for my soft stance on crime and punishment but even i think talk of kneecappings is ridiculous and won't be effective. You have a gang wandering around kneecapping people they feel are causing a problem and your different from any other group of thugs how exactly??? . What we need is for the police officers we have in this country to be freed from the desks they have to sit behind too much and get them out and about ON FOOT. Sorry but a car driving past is no good we need the police out on foot with a couple of cars to respond very quickly to emergency incidents.

what about headcapping ? its more permanent.

How about long sentences for crimes served in far harsher prison's with no let off for good behaviour. Now thats something i could certainly get behind were any poilitician to have the pair to suggest it.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

If a child these days decides they want to do something no matter what a pareant says exactly what powers are there that parents are ALLOWED to use anymore. It's all well and good shouting for parents to be hauled over for unruly kids and while there may be circumstances where a very small minority of parents have totally abandoned their responsibility it is by no means a general state of affairs.

What is a general state of affairs is parents feeling powerless to actually enforce rules in this day and age when kids are so suseptible to outside influence and that outside influence has changed a hell of a lot since i was a kid. Problems with anti social kids have more then one cause and therefore need more then one solution.

Lock the doors and prevent them leaving.
If they get out, go hunt for them and bring them home.
Start discipline from an early age.
Shout at them, remove their privilages, use emotional blackmail, even spank them.
All of that is legal and allowed.

"Lock the doors and prevent them leaving." = Unlawful imprisonment.
"If they get out, go hunt for them and bring them home." Means physically dragging them back ie. assault.

Those above two terms were told to my now problem son by a teacher at his school who also provided him with a childline card and encouragement to use it. Yes discipline from an early helps doesn't solve the problem shouting at them doesn't work, restricting privileges also not very effective from past experience as for spanking when they get to be teenagers Xaccer's see above as it is assault.

But thank you for pointing those options out but sadly they have been tried and have failed. You obviously havn't had some of the less then helpful intervention by some adults fighting the good fight for childrens right's. While we got an apology from the school and an assurance such a thing would not happen again it was too late and i wonder how many other people have had similar.

I can only relate through my personal experience and although that may not be indicative of all problems with kids i doubt i am anything special and thet factors frustrating me are frustrating other parents in the UK who try to do the best they can and bring their children up in a positive and community minded way.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

"Lock the doors and prevent them leaving." = Unlawful imprisonment.

Parental responsibility, ie lawful despite what any teacher may have told them.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

"If they get out, go hunt for them and bring them home." Means physically dragging them back ie. assault.

Parental responsibility, again lawful.

Well according to the police officer that attended our house after our son phoned them while said laws were not intended for the situation they were technically applicable and also he regretted having to proceed on my son's accusation but was required to do so. That was a serving police officer in my house less then a month ago i am still awaiting the outcome. Once upon a time things like this wouold never have gotten this far as a kid i would have never dreamed of calling the police on my parents but times have changed and sadly so have attitudes.

[joglynne]

I can't speak from experience because our son never went off the rails but I don't believe that children are born bad.

IMO Children learn by example.

Parents have got to accept that it is no good letting their very young children get away with bad behaviour. A very young child who is brought up with no appreciation of what it means to have respect for other people will soon develop into the 5, 6, 10 year old who will not respect anyone whether it be their parents, teachers, or the Police.

The small child who is given every toy in the shop will soon begin to believe that it's his right to get everything that he wants when he wants it. Unless monetary values are taught, they will never be understood. If a child has never experienced the anticipation and satisfaction of owning an item,for which he has had to save at least a portion of its cost, then that child will never have any idea of the true worth of money.

A parent of an out of control child must at some point have seeded control to that child.

I don't know the solution to the problem of the out of control children who are plaguing our society to-day but I do believe that parents have got to get their acts together.

Peer pressure amongst many teens is significantly greater now then i can remember it being when i was a kid another factor is that some kids that have awful upbringings brag to other kids how good it was in certain aspects and encourage others to do it. I accept there are some completely bad lousy parents i have one living 3 doors up but it is not the case in all cases and simply putting it down to lousy parents in a general sense is going to miss some of the other problems and having been missed no one will bother looking or thinking how to tackle those.

Being honest ten years ago i would probably have been one of the people shouting for parents to be hammered but as your kids grow so does your understanding and perspective and i have come to realise through the troubles we now have with our son (but not our straight A daughter) that sometimes it is not as black and white as we would all sometimes like to think.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Well according to the police officer that attended our house after our son phoned them while said laws were not intended for the situation they were technically applicable and also he regretted having to proceed on my son's accusation but was required to do so. That was a serving police officer in my house less then a month ago i am still awaiting the outcome. Once upon a time things like this wouold never have gotten this far as a kid i would have never dreamed of calling the police on my parents but times have changed and sadly so have attitudes.

Unfortunately, the police are some of the least knowlegable people when it comes to the law.
Hence why you get situations such as where a shipment of realistic imitation firearms are held in Holland, and the retailer they are due for gets a phone call from some jumped up desk PC in the Met claiming that they're on their way to arrest the retailer for breaking the law.
And why when someone defends themselves when attacked by their partner, they end up with a police caution that makes out they were the attacker.
Given a month has passed, I would imagine he's been informed of the legallities and quietly dropped the matter as it serves no purpose, ie a magistrate or jury would not likely convict someone for grounding their child or dragging them home after dark unless there is actual child abuse taking place.

[joglynne]

RizzyKing. I agree that peer pressure is a force to be reckoned with and that teens are particularly at risk. Good children have been affected by bad peer pressure and I believe these children with luck, and help, and can realise that it's not a road in life that they wish to stay on.

A friend of my son became evolved with a pretty bad set of lads when he was 14. He ended up in social care at 15, and it took a six moth sentence at 18 before he realised what his life would be like if he didn't sort himself out.

Your son has had the benefit of a good set of parents, what is happening to him now is not so much a reflection on you as parents but on society to-day. The values he has grown up with, and to an extent disregarded, are still there and with time may reassert themselves.

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by joglynne

.... A very young child who is brought up with no appreciation of what it means to have respect for other people will soon develop into the 5, 6, 10 year old who will not respect anyone whether it be their parents, teachers, or the Police.....

Someone said exactly that on the radio the other day; by the time they get to school, some children are expert manipulators of adults.

My children are no angels, but if asked for my advice I would say start early (as soon as they can understand what you are saying), lay down lots of rules, gradually relax some of the rules as they get older, but never relax the important rules.

Xaccers i know parents that have heard nothing for two months and then been in court in the third month it really is that stupid. Thank you for your kind words Jog i just worry we are being baited into a frenzy by certain groups with certain agendas and when this stupid kneejerk government act it will be in a way that harms more good parents then it penalises those parents that deserve it. Please everyone understand i am not saying the bad parents are not out there i know they are i think we all know they are but there are not as many as some would like us to believe.

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

.... Please everyone understand i am not saying the bad parents are not out there i know they are i think we all know they are but there are not as many as some would like us to believe.

I don't think there are many "bad" parents (although there are a few), but well-meaning parents who go down a certain path and then realise the consequences too late.