Multiple abortions

[Xaccers]

I've never met anyone with the attitude of "Oh well, I can always get an abortion"

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

Why do you not line up these children and shoot them it amounts to the same thing

I see you're still not thinking before you post.

[BBKing]

I quoted the last paragraph simply because it related directly to the point of this thread and, contrary to what some people still claim, confirms the view of certain groups/people out there view abortion as just another acceptable form of contraception.

It's rude to use 'some people' as part of your argument. If you can't address people by name don't expect a reasoned answer. Likewise, setting up possible straw men by referring to 'some groups' falls under the same banner.

However, the substantive point that abortion is the extreme end of a spectrum of family planning mechanisms is perfectly valid from a technical standpoint (in terms of stopping people having babies), so if you really want to reduce abortions, increase the effectiveness of the others, by making them more freely available, having better education, research etc. Importing US anti-abortion drivel will have precisely the opposite effect, since it stems entirely from theologically-driven considerations where male control over female sexuality is the ultimate driver, rather than rational considerations of public health and, being an ideology, has substantial fundamental problems when applied to the real world. Just say no.

By the way, anyone quoting 'Mad' Nadine Dorries MP is automatically deemed to have lost the argument, by the way - this is highly humorous:

http://www.septicisle.info/2008/03/w...myth-when.html

This is the calibre of person we're dealing with here.

So far nobody has been able to explain why despite the availability of highly effective methods of contraception so many young women seem to get pregnant more than once and then have abortions risking their own long term health, wellbeing and even fertility by so doing.

They'd risk a lot more if abortion wasn't legally available. But hey, the unspoken subtext of anti-abortion campaigns (imported from the hate-filled US right) is that they're just sluts and therefore expendable, won't someone please think of the poor ickle foetuses? I've made up my mind that real, living human beings are more important - gasp, shock horror, moral relativism. Guilty as charged, but it's better than rank hypocrisy any day. Fortunately, the British people chose the sensible option.

Im certainly not saying I hate people who have abortions. I disagree with their stance on the the subject and I certainly feel if a man and a woman have consensual sex and do not take precautions then then should stand by there choice instead of cop out and have an abortion. Sexual morality is not a bad thing imo. I do not truly know what to think on the subject of rape victims falling pregnant I do understand the wish to get it out of her body and if it happened to a partner of mine I would support her wish even though id be unsure about how I truly felt. The same would be said for the severly disabled. But I will never agree thats its right for a healthy woman to give up a healthy baby for choice

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

.... I disagree with their stance on the the subject ...

Here's a question (because I'd like to know your opinion):

Some forms of contraception* prevent the implantation of a fertilised egg. This is, in effect, a very early termination of pregnancy. Do you also disagree with this?



* coil, morning-after pill

Once the egg is fertilized its lifespan would lead to a human if it is allowed to continue so I am against it

The other point of course is if your not in a long term relationship with someone you can trust they do nothing to prevent STIs

Sexual morality imo is at an all time low. People go out meet in a pub or club and sleep together that night . Some do not take precautions this is just plain wrong

[Russ]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

Sexual morality imo is at an all time low

Possibly the most sensible thing which has been said in this thread. Thing is though, there are many many people who see low levels of sexual morality as very low on their list of priorities.

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by Russ B

... there are many many people who see low levels of sexual morality as very low on their list of priorities.

I expect there are some who have low levels of sexual morality very high on their list of priorities, for all the wrong reasons.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Possibly the most sensible thing which has been said in this thread. Thing is though, there are many many people who see low levels of sexual morality as very low on their list of priorities.

Zinglebarb is correct and so are you with your comment, but we must not mix up love and sex.

Sexual morality is very low on my list of priorities when I am not in a serious relationship. when I was not in a serious relationship I would go out most weekends and pick up a woman, I always used condoms and on one occasion I actually walked away from a woman. I had consumed alcohol and offered to take her home but still had the sense to walk away because the condom machine was empty.

Abortion should be dealt with on an individual basis, there's no right or wrong decision.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by BBKing

It's rude to use 'some people' as part of your argument. If you can't address people by name don't expect a reasoned answer. Likewise, setting up possible straw men by referring to 'some groups' falls under the same banner.

Rude ? I don't think so at all. Some people are in denial about HIV/AIDS but I don't have to name Tabo Mbeki and his Health Minister to make that point or get a reasoned answer do I? If so, every time we have any form of debate on here we're all going to have to name all those we're referring to and you'll have to stop using the general term 'the Tabloids' when you're referring to particular newspapers you despise.

I used the term 'some people' because in addition to groups like those I referred to there are no doubt others who are in denial about how some people misuse abortion either because they're plain stupid or because it doesn't suit their argument to accept the fact.

As for those arguing against abortion per se (who you haven't identifed in your post BTW) - please don't include me in their numbers. I've made it quite clear where I stand and I think what's required is to get to the root of why, despite all the advice, contraception etc. freely available out there, so many people are having multiple abortions.


* awaiting your exhaustive list of hate filled anti abortion groups (not that it will add to your point).

---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I've never met anyone with the attitude of "Oh well, I can always get an abortion"

Well you've never met 99.999% of the World's population and you don't have to have done so to know that there are some people out there who have the strangest attitudes to all sorts of things, some who are stupid and some who are just plain reckless.

I suspect that if you asked some of these young women if they think like that about abortion when they're in a more reflective mood they'd confirm what you're saying. However, if you did so after, for example, they'd been binge drinking all evening you'd probably get a very different answer. You'd also get a different answer from those who knew the risks and went ahead with unprotected sex on the basis that pregnancy simply wouldn't happen to them or who were pressurised into it by their peers and/or partners.

The people I'm referring to and worried about are not those sensible women who make a reasoned choice in difficult circumstances but those who get themselves into the situation through one mistake or another and then have to resort to abortion, all too often more than once. I'd really rather they never got into that sad position once let alone several times and being in denial about the existence of this proportion of women isn't doing anything to help them.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

I will get flamed for this but I personally think abortion for any other reason than severe handicapped is tantamount to murder . Abortion for choice imo is just wrong .

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree. I will however ask one thing: What is best, aborting a baby or bringing one up in a life of poverty? If you can barely afford to feed yourself, how can you affor to feed and clothe a child for 18 years?

I know that in an ideal world we would all use contraception, which would work 100% of the time. Sadly, this world is not perfect. People sometimes don't use contraception, or it fails (my friend's baby was concieved thanks largely to a split condom).

And yes, I know that family or friends should help, but not everyone is lucky enough to have a family or friends that are willing (or able) to do that.

I don't believe abortion is an easy option. Nor do I believe it should be. However, I do believe in some cases, it is a lot easier than the alternative.

I also think that we (as a society) need to look at ways we can help women who feel they need to have abortions rather than judging them when they have them.

However, if someone is having multiple abortions without medical reasons, then we need to ask why.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ B

Possibly the most sensible thing which has been said in this thread. Thing is though, there are many many people who see low levels of sexual morality as very low on their list of priorities.

It's not necessarily just a problem with morality. While refusing to have sex is an excellent way to prevent pregnancy and most STDs, simply remembering to use a condom can be a very effective way to prevent STDs and pregnancy (unless it fails, as above).

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

.... I will however ask one thing: What is best, aborting a baby or bringing one up in a life of poverty? ....

Adoption?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Adoption?

Depends on the situation. Some women I know would be severely hurt (yes, I am being serious) if their families even knew they'd been with a man. I dread to think what would happen if they gave birth, even if the baby was adopted.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Adoption?

Not always possible.

Another question is which is preferable; women having multiple abortions in registered and regulated clinics, or returning to gin and coathangers?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Not always possible.

Another question is which is preferable; women having multiple abortions in registered and regulated clinics, or returning to gin and coathangers?

Good point. Women who are desperate enough will have an abortion, regardless of whether it is legal,or,in some cases, safe or not.

How many women lost their lives in the 40s, 50s or 60s because of illegal abortions?

Originally Posted by Stuart C

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree. I will however ask one thing: What is best, aborting a baby or bringing one up in a life of poverty? If you can barely afford to feed yourself, how can you affor to feed and clothe a child for 18 years?

I know that in an ideal world we would all use contraception, which would work 100% of the time. Sadly, this world is not perfect. People sometimes don't use contraception, or it fails (my friend's baby was concieved thanks largely to a split condom).

And yes, I know that family or friends should help, but not everyone is lucky enough to have a family or friends that are willing (or able) to do that.

I don't believe abortion is an easy option. Nor do I believe it should be. However, I do believe in some cases, it is a lot easier than the alternative.

I also think that we (as a society) need to look at ways we can help women who feel they need to have abortions rather than judging them when they have them.

However, if someone is having multiple abortions without medical reasons, then we need to ask why.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------



It's not necessarily just a problem with morality. While refusing to have sex is an excellent way to prevent pregnancy and most STDs, simply remembering to use a condom can be a very effective way to prevent STDs and pregnancy (unless it fails, as above).

In this country no one is actually poor. In Africa or other countries yes but not here. IMO a life in poverty is better than no life at all. If you were skint what would you choose? to struggle a bit or be dead? cuz that is what it amounts to life and death. It seems to be easy for people to look upon these foetus's as no living but they are