Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

EY Report Page 2 Point II
Phorm has established industry-leading standards regarding storage, retention and deletion of data.
Blah Blah however,

• This specific data cannot be accessed by our ISP partners.
• Even this non-personally -identifiable information is automatically purged from the production system immediately (research and debug logs may be kept on a separate system for a maximum of 14 days).
• Once the system purges this data, it is not possible for us to release it, either accidentally or deliverately.

Blah, Blah
Sincerely

Kent Ertugrul
CEO
Phorm, Inc.

Thanks for that SMharman. I havent made the time to read the Ernst and Young report yet. Not sure that I like the sounds of this though. I am dead set against phorm but I am on a low income and cant afford to change ISP (No BT line and no other options without one) but if VM do make this opt-out rather than opt-in I will downgrade my services to the lowest tier in protest. At least then they WILL be losing money.

As per the 14 day logs for research and debugging, I arent quite sure what to make of that. The AOL debacle last year showed that so called "anonymising" does not work and I guess it largely depends exactly how they define this "research." Personally I dont trust Phorm one iota. What I would like to say to the CEO of Phorm isnt polite enough for this forum.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by fatbloke

I emailed Virgin to opt out of this phorm deal,the very nice guy I spoke too said he would get back to me which he did...he didn't seem to know much about the deal but did say that Virgin are testing the water to see how it would go down with it's customers.
He also offered me the name and phone number so I could speak to someone from Phorm which I declined and pointed out to him that my Isp is Virgin and they alone are responsible for this deal, If I was targetted in any way with ads I would leave Virgin.
So if you haven't complained to Virgin yet do so and also get anyone else you know on Virgin cable to complain as well.

That seems so stupid why do businesses think shooting thermselves in the foot is good for business. They just had there best quarter for a long time turning the company round.

The feel good factor was growing services was being upgraded and some snooty idiot in some office had a brainwave to test the resolve of its customers by doing this.

Have they thought about risk assesment management in VM. Did they honestly thought customers would go oh well we have cttv camera's every inch of the uk surely the wont mind us going to bed with some dodgy hackers who make rootkits for spyware. So we can snoop and profile there habits just to give us more junk, but oh wait it will be only adverts we would be interested in.

I sometimes wonder if these educated people who are in positions to make decisions have any brains at all.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by myrtle

I sometimes wonder if these educated people who are in positions to make decisions have any brains at all.

As long as they come up with stupid idea's VM will listen to them

[Barkotron]

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Postcards, not letters; see posts 1122, 1128 & 1129

No, not postcards. Go back and read those posts you listed, as they explain to you why the packet is a letter not a postcard.

[EDIT: To be honest it's a bogus distinction anyway. Even if it's a postcard, are you seriously suggesting that it would be okay for the Post Office to read the contents of a postcard and sell the information that whoever was sending it had e.g. gone to Greece on holiday and liked the food, so that some junk mail company could send me "Win a holiday" promotions and adverts for feta? The people posting it might be able to read the info, but legally they're not allowed to do anything with it. Even if it's on a postcard - it's none of their damn business where I've been or what my friends and relatives think of their diving trip or whatever. You're right, a postcard you don't have any expectation that it won't be read - however, an expectation that that knowledge will not be exploited for commercial gain is perfectly reasonable.]

I notice you ignored the major substance of my post, which is that the Home Office advice clearly states that this kind of action IS illegal under the RIPA unless it is a) with the explicit consent of both the communicating parties, or b) necessary to provide the contracted service of delivery of communications.

[smeagoly1]

Reading on the BBC news technology section wed 12th that Talk Talk are considering making it "Opt In"
If VM do go ahead with the system I hope they don't make the "opt out" as obscure as some other opt out systems companies have used in the past.

Yahoo a few years ago had an opt out for something but was placed so hidden away it was a miricle if you found it. Then only if you knew it was there in the first place by word of mouth.

E-mailing every user with details would have to be a must, and a quick link to opting out.

Not everyone goes to the company web page and reads through. Yep companies will put things up in small corners of their own company pages, and say well we have complied with the law, even though you need to have the eyesight of the "6 Million Dollar Man" to find it. Yes I am showing my ages with that quote hahaha

I can only see this having a very big negative impact for users and companies involved.
Especially for the users stuck or who can't end their contracts and move onto other isp's.

[ceedee]

By definition, if VM decide to go purely for an opt-out then it's not worth having as they'll still be hijacking your clickstream ("but honestly we're not peeking!").

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+.
And BT (Wholesale) don't offer anything like VM's 30-day guarantee on new installs -- I'll be committed for 18 months (half-price installation) no matter how VM might adjust their position after they've brought it in.


VM have had several weeks to consider the grassroots reaction to Phorm and have done (virtually) nothing. My guess is that either they don't value our privacy or the potential extra income from the targeted adverts is worth more than our subscriptions.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by ceedee

By definition, if VM decide to go purely for an opt-out then it's not worth having as they'll still be hijacking your clickstream ("but honestly we're not peeking!").

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+.
And BT (Wholesale) don't offer anything like VM's 30-day guarantee on new installs -- I'll be committed for 18 months (half-price installation) no matter how VM might adjust their position after they've brought it in.


VM have had several weeks to consider the grassroots reaction to Phorm and have done (virtually) nothing. My guess is that either they don't value our privacy or the potential extra income from the targeted adverts is worth more than our subscriptions.

Good Post

[Florence]

Originally Posted by ceedee

By definition, if VM decide to go purely for an opt-out then it's not worth having as they'll still be hijacking your clickstream ("but honestly we're not peeking!").

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+.
And BT (Wholesale) don't offer anything like VM's 30-day guarantee on new installs -- I'll be committed for 18 months (half-price installation) no matter how VM might adjust their position after they've brought it in.


VM have had several weeks to consider the grassroots reaction to Phorm and have done (virtually) nothing. My guess is that either they don't value our privacy or the potential extra income from the targeted adverts is worth more than our subscriptions.

Yes I am taking the BT half price reconnection it is only valued until may 2008 but since my trust in VM has dropped to 0 I am on my way back to BT. Just waiting for my money to go in and the order will be in BT line ASAP already ordered my ADSL modem/router.

[the_baby_jebus]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+

I wouldn't use BT as your ISP though.. they're up to their necks in this scam as well...

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...=2612&tstart=0

[popper]

#1113
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
"
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof
-------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Does this mean that when I roam onto the Orange UK network when I visit the UK I need to opt in or out? How does that work.

thats a very good question, it seems this question and many more are being ignored by the many news outlets.

you have to wonder why?, as theres far more mobile users out there than even BB users, is it that people just dont care if this 'Interception For Sale' expands to all mobile browsing and other related area's, id think not.

it seems clear , the investors and markets are just hopeing this all goes away and gets forgotten.

the question remains, other than 'the register', why havent the other news outlets covered any of this new mobile IFS.

and perhaps even more worrying,why (other than here)havent the online messageboards and blogs also linked this into the current ISP/Phorm concerns?

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by smeagoly1

E-mailing every user with details would have to be a must, and a quick link to opting out.

Not everyone goes to the company web page and reads through. Yep companies will put things up in small corners of their own company pages, and say well we have complied with the law, even though you need to have the eyesight of the "6 Million Dollar Man" to find it. Yes I am showing my ages with that quote hahaha

Writing, not since I used demon internet dial up did I use an ISPs email service. Neither NTL/VM or Cablevision in the US know my email address, both set me up an email account on their system but I could not access it if you paid me $1M, well if you paid me $1M I would go on line and find out how to get to it, but you see where I am coming from.

This is a fundamental change to T&Cs and would need to be in writing anyway.

I have not talked to my parents about this, they still use VM as their ISP, I am waiting to see if they ask me about changes to their T&Cs or whether the documents, like when your bank changes parts of their T&Cs just gets ignored and binned. This way I will see what the average user who just wants a broadband connection to send a few emails and book a vacation sees and understands of this change.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by the_baby_jebus

I wouldn't use BT as your ISP though.. they're up to their necks in this scam as well...

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...=2612&tstart=0

Yes we know BT are into phorm aswell I am off to Aquiss who are not going to be phorm(ed).

[popper]

Virgin Media cant use email for 'official notification' Now anyway, as they removed that option from their T&Cs ages ago.

probably as a way to make it harder for you to send them any 'official notice', but it works both ways and they seem to have forgotten that.

OC, its possible they may re-include the Electronic Official Notice option into the T&C at some point, as they would have to do so for any popup 'do you agree' type options they and the other ISPs think constitutes getting 'explicit consent' (it doesnt AFAIC).

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by ceedee

By definition, if VM decide to go purely for an opt-out then it's not worth having as they'll still be hijacking your clickstream ("but honestly we're not peeking!").

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+.
And BT (Wholesale) don't offer anything like VM's 30-day guarantee on new installs -- I'll be committed for 18 months (half-price installation) no matter how VM might adjust their position after they've brought it in.


VM have had several weeks to consider the grassroots reaction to Phorm and have done (virtually) nothing. My guess is that either they don't value our privacy or the potential extra income from the targeted adverts is worth more than our subscriptions.

Well if everyone leaves who is against this Then VM are stupid to ignore the general feeling of their customers. Less customers will lead to less revenue from targeted ads, i will also be leaving if they implement this infringement on privacy. I also have a BT line already here that just needs the switch flicking, so mine is not an empty threat as i don't have to worry about a line installation

[none]

Originally Posted by Florence

Yes we know BT are into phorm aswell I am off to Aquiss who are not going to be phorm(ed).

I can certainly vouch for Aquiss. I have dealt with them in the past and they were always polite, well informed and truthful to their word. Defiantly (by far) the best ADSL provider I'd ever been with.