Right or wrong - Page 2

Stuart · 21-02-2008, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret

So what if its the mail its no better or worse than any over tabloid.

Let me simplify it for you.

Let me simplify it for you.

The Mail seems to have an agenda. They appear to want people to think that the world is falling apart. They will, therefore, publish stories that reenforce this idea, and don't seem to publish any that don't.

Also, another point. It has been referred to the CPS. That is all we know. I see no evidence in that article that the Police or CPS are considering a Murder charge. The Mail is speculating about a Murder charge. In fact, it says later on that the shopkeeper was released on Police Bail. Does this happen if someone is charged with Murder? I am fairly certain it doesn't, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong..

Now: Time for me to correct myself.

From http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_a.html#22

Quote:

Section 3
If a person charged with murder is granted bail, there is a mandatory bail condition which has to be imposed. Under section 3(6A) Bail Act 1976, a court that releases a defendant on bail when charged with murder must impose at least 2 bail conditions:

a requirement that the defendant undergoes examination by 2 medical practitioners, one of whom has been approved for the purposes of s.12 Mental Health Act 1983; and
a requirement that the defendant attends for examination when directed by the court.

My reading of that is that a court may grant bail on a murder charge, but the person they are releasing would have to have been seen by a Psychiatrist (or other mental health professional) and a Doctor. The article mentions neither of them.

AntiSilence · 21-02-2008, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

In fact, it says later on that the shopkeeper was released on Police Bail. Does this happen if someone is charged with Murder? I am fairly certain it doesn't, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong..

Erm...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...on-776414.html

Only accused of murder, but even so...

Tezcatlipoca · 21-02-2008, 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret

So what if its the mail its no better or worse than any over tabloid.

LOL, that's not really a positive thing though. They're all awful...

(although I do think the Mail is one of the worst).

You may find this interesting...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-N...3634743&sr=8-1

(although the "quality" papers can be bad sometimes too... but still not to the level of the tabloid trash)

Stuart · 21-02-2008, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntiSilence

Erm...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...on-776414.html

Only accused of murder, but even so...

Yeah, I found that after I posted, hence my revising my post above to include the laws on the CPS website.

alferret · 21-02-2008, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Let me simplify it for you.

The Mail seems to have an agenda. They appear to want people to think that the world is falling apart. They will, therefore, publish stories that reenforce this idea, and don't seem to publish any that don't.

Also, another point. It has been referred to the CPS. That is all we know. I see no evidence in that article that the Police or CPS are considering a Murder charge. The Mail is speculating about a Murder charge. In fact, it says later on that the shopkeeper was released on Police Bail. Does this happen if someone is charged with Murder? I am fairly certain it doesn't, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong..

LINK EDIT*** Beaten to it by Antisilence

The mail wants us to think the world is falling apart?
Of course the world is falling apart or havnt you looked lately, its in a right crap state Stuart and its not looking to get any better soon.

---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D

LOL, that's not really a positive thing though. They're all awful...

(although I do think the Mail is one of the worst).

You may find this interesting...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-N...3634743&sr=8-1

(although the "quality" papers can be bad sometimes too... but still not to the level of the tabloid trash)

I wonder when a book will be published to de-bunk the de-bunkers?

Your right Matt its not positive and they are all awful.

Still the facts are (regardless who's reporting it) A man saved himself from being killed by an attacker that was out to rob him, the outcome was that the attacker died due to a single stab wound and the victim needed hospital treatment for wounds to his back, face & neck and now he faces the possibility of prison for self defence.

Stuart · 21-02-2008, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret

The mail wants us to think the world is falling apart?
Of course the world is falling apart or havnt you looked lately, its in a right crap state Stuart and its not looking to get any better soon.

Well, it's not really. OK, it's in a crap state, but, TBH, that hasn't really changed in all the 36 years I've been alive.

We've alway had violence, we've always had terrorist threats (well, living in London, I've experienced a few bombscares and actually worked in a building where one of the receptionists recieved a correctly coded IRA threat). BTW, thats based on what I have seen and experienced. Not just read in a paper.

Of course, that isn't the picture you get from any of the press. People pay to be frightened, or have something to moan about, and that's what they provide. I could go on, but this is wandering off topic.

Xaccers · 22-02-2008, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret

So what if its the mail its no better or worse than any over tabloid.

Let me simplify it for you.

Man get attacked by robber.
Robber ends up dying.
Man gets reported to CPS just to see if there is a case to answer to.

Now call me stupid but he defended himself, the attacker got stuck by his own knife and died where is the justice in trying to see if there is a case to bring towards the man who got attacked. The only justice in this is that the victim survived and the attacker died, good ridance to crap.

A man has been killed, surely it should be investigated properly following due process.
Or are you saying you'd prefer a system where if you said you were attacked it was taken at face value?

Stuart · 22-02-2008, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

A man has been killed, surely it should be investigated properly following due process.
Or are you saying you'd prefer a system where if you said you were attacked it was taken at face value?

Actually, I would agree. When the Police reach a crime scene, they have no idea what has happened. All they see before investigation is an injured bloke in a car and presumably a dead or dying bloke beside it.

A similar thing happened to me when my father died (I wasn't actually arrested though). I was told that because the death occurred outside a medical facility, the family were automatically placed under suspicion of causing the death. I was also told that this was just procedure.

22-02-2008, 01:21

If you dont believe The Daily Mail, how about The Telegraph:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ncrime121.xml

or The Guardian:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/fe...ss&feed=uknews

.

Stuart · 22-02-2008, 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by XFS03

If you dont believe The Daily Mail, how about The Telegraph:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ncrime121.xml

Quote:

A shopkeeper could be charged with murder after defending himself

They still say could. Nothing definate.

Quote:

or The Guardian:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/fe...ss&feed=uknews

.

And The Grauniad isn't even committing to saying any charges will be brought:

Quote:

Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell of Lancashire police said he would refer the case to the CPS today but declined to say whether he had recommended that Mr Singh be charged with murder or any other offence. The CPS will make the final decision on whether any charges should be brought.

However, in fairness to the Mail, they don't say any Murder Charges have been bought either.

shawty · 22-02-2008, 01:30

If someone kills someone, then they face manslaughter or murder. You cant just go round killing people and getting away with it.

Stuart · 22-02-2008, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

If someone kills someone, then they face manslaughter or murder. You cant just go round killing people and getting away with it.

You sure? What about the concept of Self Defence? After all, the guy used the handle of his knife to smash the shopkeepr's car window, then apparently threatened the shopkeeper. I'm fairly sure the court would agree that pretty much any action the shopkeeper took could be said to be in self defence. Ok, he may not got off scot free, but he could have a heavily reduced charge or sentence.

shawty · 22-02-2008, 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

You sure? What about the concept of Self Defence? After all, the guy used the handle of his knife to smash the shopkeepr's car window. I'm fairly sure the court would agree that pretty much any action the shopkeeper took could be said to be in self defence. Ok, he may not got off scot free, but he could have a heavily reduced charge or sentence.

Yeah, I wasnt arguing that. Like I said he then would face manslaughter? At the end of the day, he killed someone and we cant let something like that go un punished?

One thing I dont know, can you be let off for defending yourself, even if someone had died?

Anyway, as we dont know the facts, anything could have happened and the Police would have to investigate a murder anyway.

22-02-2008, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

If someone kills someone, then they face manslaughter or murder. You cant just go round killing people and getting away with it.

Jesus some people, he'd worked a 13 hour shift in his shop only for some **** bag to try and take his takings for the day aided by a knife, he got what was coming to him IMO.

Sirius · 22-02-2008, 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

If someone kills someone, then they face manslaughter or murder. You cant just go round killing people and getting away with it.

I said one would come along to support the robber.

So what do you want to happen to the VICTIM.

Long jail sentence

Made to walk with a sign that Say's "HEY look i defended myself, I am the bad boy".

Get real. This man was attacked with a knife and rightly defended himself against someone who by having a knife and using it was attempting to murder the victim. The robber got in my opinion a taste of his own medicine.

But hey there is always those that will support the Criminal and not the victim. Are you a Human Rights Lawyer by any chance ?