BNP Wives.... (or even hubbies)

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

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But everyone in a race is not the same, if you make judgements on a race based on the actions of a few members of that race is that not racist itself? After all, if a white man (presuming your white) commits a crime against you then you would not judge that experience as indicative of all white men.
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One thing I do find happening much more nowadays is that people are targeting muslims in the same manner as is deemed unacceptable to target, say black people.

If I went around and said that all black young men are knife weilding drug dealers (based on my personal experiences in south London) then I would rightly be branded some sort of racist and my views wouldn't be acceptable. However I do find more and more people judging the whole Muslim community based on the actions of a relative minority within the community itself. People think they can get away with it because they are not being racist (as a religion is not a race so you can't be being racist - views echoed in this forum aswell). I personal think its the same thing, because most people I know that voice anti Muslim views are directing it towards the asian/brown skinned people whom they believe to be Muslim.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

One thing I do find happening much more nowadays is that people are targeting muslims in the same manner as is deemed unacceptable to target, say black people.

If I went around and said that all black young men are knife weilding drug dealers (based on my personal experiences in south London) then I would rightly be branded some sort of racist and my views wouldn't be acceptable. However I do find more and more people judging the whole Muslim community based on the actions of a relative minority within the community itself. People think they can get away with it because they are not being racist (as a religion is not a race so you can't be being racist - views echoed in this forum aswell). I personal think its the same thing, because most people I know that voice anti Muslim views are directing it towards the asian/brown skinned people whom they believe to be Muslim.

You do here a lot of people saying stuff like:

"If they don't like it they shouldnt come here"
from people who think all muslims are immigrants

or the classic:

"But if we went to their country, we wouldnt be given any rights" which presumes all muslims are immigrants, presumes all immigrants come from a country run by an oppresive muslim government, but also that all muslims are responsible and accountible for what these governments do.

People are simply stupid sometimes and given the culture at the moment people will not protect the rights of muslims/asians as much as they would black people. I know there are people on this forum who air the view constantly that muslims are all violent and wish to convert the entire globe to islam via jihad.

The best thing Muslims could do to fight this is make it clear that the majority deplore terrorism. The media do not cover it as much as they cover any western protests (they cover muslims protests a lot no matter how small the number) but eventually more and more people will get the message. Islamic terrorism was given a massive boost after 9/11 especially with Bush given them excellent recuriting power by making them seem a bigger and more dangerous entity than they were at that time.

It is however a bigger danger to your religion than our countries and is a war within Islam, and other Muslims are the best way to fight it. It's a shame that the press and some parts of the population do not seem to spot this and are content to increase the sepration with the west that would cause impressionible and angry young muslims to join terrorist groups

[SOSAGES]

these muslim chaps do seem to cause a lot of trouble.

[punky]

Noone is innocent here SLM, Not even Muslims with a victim-complex.

Because of the bans across many Muslim countries, our home office issues dual passports to people wishing to travel to Israel and many Muslim countries. While many BNP fathers won't allow their daughters to marry Muslims, considerable numbers of Muslim fathers won't allow their daughters to marry westernised Muslims, let alone non-Muslims.

Yes, Muslims are discriminated against, but they also are discriminators themselves. Just like everyone else. Discrimination is a human trait, not a racial or cultural one.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Damien

You do here a lot of people saying stuff like:

"If they don't like it they shouldnt come here"
from people who think all muslims are immigrants

The problem is that all races suffer from racism, and some members of all races (I should stress not all members) express racism. This is something we sometimes forget. Some people from all races are racist, yet, there is a perception that we concentrate on white people being racist to non-whites.

I think part of the problem is that people meet people from other races, and assume they are all like that. Clearly, they aren't. You could meet me, and, depending on the mood I am in, I can be fairly outgoing and am usually friendly, sometimes loud. If you didn't know any English people, you could assume we are all friendly, outgoing and loud. We aren't (I'm not, always).If you met Nugget or Mr Love Monkey, you could end up assuming all the English are perverts .

People see the actions of a few extremists, and assume that all muslims are violent bigots. Which isn't true. Most muslims, while they do have problems with muslims marrying non-muslims (let's not forget, Islam is not the only religion that has problems with it's followers marrying outside the religion), are perfectly happy to get on with things peacefully, and get one with people.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Gavin

Noone is innocent here SLM, Not even Muslims with a victim-complex.

Because of the bans across many Muslim countries, our home office issues dual passports to people wishing to travel to Israel and many Muslim countries. While many BNP fathers won't allow their daughters to marry Muslims, considerable numbers of Muslim fathers won't allow their daughters to marry westernised Muslims, let alone non-Muslims.

Yes, Muslims are discriminated against, but they also are discriminators themselves. Just like everyone else. Discrimination is a human trait, not a racial or cultural one.

I think you are missing the point I am making. I am not saying muslims do not discriminate, the point I am making is how its now seen as "fair game" to a lot of people, to tar all members of the religion, with the same sort of arguments that wouldnt be acceptable if you were applying them to a race (of say black people).

Also I do not think you have to have a victim complex to see that the majority of muslims are tarnished with the same brush everytime there is a "muslim" issue. The press and members of the public introduce arguments including immigration; adapting to "british" culture, as well as statements such as, "why should we tolerate it in our country".

Take this forum for one. If there weren't a handful of posters on here who see beyond the attitude that "all muslims are trouble making fanatics and should either adapt to our culture or leave", then every single muslim related thread on here would end up with the sentiments that we should all get out of this country or give up practising our religion here.

On the point of marrying non muslims, this is not an issue that is exclusive to Islam. Its discouraged/frowned on by followers of other religions too.

[punky]

Change the record, son.

You seem to be very concerned about discrimination against Muslims, but seem rather blaise about anything going in the other direction: "I am not saying muslims do not discriminate"

So, I think you're missing the point i'm making as well.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Gavin

Noone is innocent here SLM, Not even Muslims with a victim-complex.

Because of the bans across many Muslim countries, our home office issues dual passports to people wishing to travel to Israel and many Muslim countries. While many BNP fathers won't allow their daughters to marry Muslims, considerable numbers of Muslim fathers won't allow their daughters to marry westernised Muslims, let alone non-Muslims.

Yes, Muslims are discriminated against, but they also are discriminators themselves. Just like everyone else. Discrimination is a human trait, not a racial or cultural one.

Here, here.

I think you are missing the point I am making. I am not saying muslims do not discriminate, the point I am making is how its now seen as "fair game" to a lot of people, to tar all members of the religion, with the same sort of arguments that wouldnt be acceptable if you were applying them to a race (of say black people).

It's all about perception.

Like it or not, the vast majority of people perceive Islam to be an Intollerant, violent, oppressive religion. The Governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia only help fuel this perception with the amount of executions and chopping off of hands and feet. British Muslims and indeed muslims world wide also do nothing to dispel this perception. Even during a recent episode of Wife Swap which involved what you would call a typical British Muslim family showed the Muslim Wife to be intolerant of the other families way of life.

Like it or not, be it the truth or not - that is the perception and unless something is done to change that perception then that is the way it will be.

And don't think this is just reserved for Muslims, I'm pretty sure if took a straw poll on peoples views on Scientology, Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses it'd come back with people thinking they're all weirdo's.

Originally Posted by SOSAGES

these muslim chaps do seem to cause a lot of trouble.

Thats not racist! Its sexist!

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

On the point of marrying non muslims, this is not an issue that is exclusive to Islam. Its discouraged/frowned on by followers of other religions too.

Which is why I said "Noone is innocent here". At least its something we can agree on.

Regarding the other points, I could do a blow-by-blow account rebutting them, but it will be only rehashing old arguments, some already posted in the thread. I said my mind, you said yours. Shall we both leave it there before this thread decends anymore?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Gavin

Change the record, son.
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Tell me, is a stupid attitude as perceived in the response above, just reserved for members of the cable Forum team or can anyone else respond in such a manner?

It doesnt really encourage discussion or debate does it.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Tell me, is a stupid attitude as perceived in the response above, just reserved for members of the cable Forum team or can anyone else respond in such a manner?

It doesnt really encourage discussion or debate does it.

I'm sorry you seem offended by the way I talk. Noone else in my life (i.e. its not because you're a Muslim) really seems bothered by it, so i'm not either. If I really wanted a fight and abuse my position as a mod, I wouldn't included the second paragraph of my post which you just seem fit to ignore. BTW, I may be a mod, but I am also a user of this site, and am entitled to an opinion and the opportunity to express it, like everyone else.

There is no debate. You just restate your opinion. I didn't believe it the first time around nor will I believe it the second. You didn't read nor understand the first words of my post. How can there be any debate?

Well in my defence my views on the group i favour less now came from not one or two minor incidents but from many incidents involving dozens from the same group. Maybe i am stupid maybe i am a full fledged racist in the eyes of some but how many people from a single group need to do things before anyone starts to view them as a whole. Part of me agrees with what some of you are saying but i am not able to just forget what i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears so if that makes me a bigot so be it.

[ShadowTD]

On the muslim issue: I believe a big part of the issue is one of perception - the fact that the 'pockets' of muslim communities that exist throughout the UK seem to exclude non-muslims tends to breed fear in their neighbours. And who's fault is that? The muslims, for following their faith and traditions, or their neighbours for wanting to live in an integrated society?

I don't have any Muslim friends. I only have one black friend (and he *is* black - when it's dark he has to smile or we'll lose him ). His nickname is 'Token' and he revels in it. The problem is when people start to take things too seriously. I'm quite loud, and I'm constantly mocked with 'Foghorn' etc comments. People need to lighten up and ditch their preconceptions. And not be so eager to shout 'racist'. Or 'sexist' or 'fattist' or any other kind of ist.

i think part of it is racism is usually seen as white against other races and that no other aspect should be considered so as long as your prepared to be white and take the blame for the problem the problem is solved. Racism is not exclusive to any one group it is unforunately universal and for it to be beaten we all need to make change and we all need to accept the common ground we have rather then the differences amongst us. I don't see it happening anytime soon.