Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Seeing as our legal system recognises the possibility of both lawful and unlawful killing, I think it's fair to ask in what way you believe the killing of a person by God to be 'unlawful' ... murder, of course, being unlawful killing rather than simply the act of taking another life.

it would be possibly fair to say that if god did cause the floods then he probably did mudrer a few people. The bishop said as much when he stated that the problem with "environmental judgment is that it is indiscriminate".
Nice deity

Originally Posted by Ramrod

<snip>Historically, religion has been a major damper on scientific discovery. From anatomy to medicine to physics to astronomy; religion has proven itself to be a massive negative force....

Beg your pardon, but that's plain nonsense. Have a read of this:

When we look back on the various intellectual and technological achievements that have given rise to modern science, it is easy to think that humanity has merely traversed a necessary path towards an inevitable discovery of the truth about the world. Our understanding of nature in all of its details and all of its glory never ceases to surprise us as once held mysteries are more and more understood to be the intricate workings of physical processes. Such a viewpoint easily guides us to the conclusion that all mysteries in life will one day be disrobed and submit to rational comprehension. Religion, now forced into a small reserve of morals and ethics, will eventually forfeit the last of its entitlements. This totally ahistorical account of science betrays the significant place religion has held in the lives of the very scientists canonised in the history of modern science. Robert Boyle, who made experiment the norm, Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, who mathematised electricity and magnetism, and Arthur Eddington, who calculated the inner workings of stars, all held sincere religious beliefs. At the very least, modern science owes a debt to those with religious faith. But more importantly, as we examine the progress and development of their scientific discoveries in light of their theological convictions, we see that religion and science were not merely accidental companions in the lives of these scientists. Their scientific work was often formed out of metaphysical convictions, investigative tools, moral values, and social practices all deeply rooted in their religion.

(emphasis mine)

That's from an introduction to a research paper called 'The Role of Religion in Scientific Creativity', published by the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion at St Edmund's College, Cambridge.

[Xaccers]

So because many scientists are religious, then religion has played no detremental part in scientific development?
So all those objections to medical investigations using teachings learnt from Muslims was just a misunderstanding?
The papal decree forbidding the speculation and investigation before the big bang just never happened?
Galileo wasn't really put under house arrest?
There was really no religious objection to the idea that we aren't at the centre of the univese then?
Herbalists weren't burned as witches?
Cor. It's like an episode of Dallas, all a dream.

Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, who mathematised electricity and magnetism, and Arthur Eddington, who calculated the inner workings of stars, all held sincere religious beliefs

Maybe I missed a post, but how exactly is that relevant ? - Are the Faraday Institute trying to imply that had these 'scientists' not held such beliefs then they wouldn't have made any scientific discoveries ?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Beg your pardon, but that's plain nonsense. Have a read of this:

I think xaccers and Paul answered competently

Originally Posted by Paul M

Maybe I missed a post, but how exactly is that relevant ? - Are the Faraday Institute trying to imply that had these 'scientists' not held such beliefs then they wouldn't have made any scientific discoveries ?

The full research isn't online - you have to buy it. So, I can't outline the entirety of what they are saying. However from other occasions I've heard this said, the basic thrust of it is, many of the great scientists in our history were motivated by their religious conviction. They wanted to explore and explain the universe because of their faith, not in spite of it, and belived that they were honouring God in discovering how he made the universe tick and being in awe of him for it.

I don't believe anyone is saying Faraday wouldn't have made any discoveries had he not been religious. However your question misunderstands the point that Ramrod made and my reply to it. Ramrod suggested that religion has been a dampener on scientific discovery, whereas it can be shown that many scientists were motivated to make scientific discovery because of their religion.

As a sweeping generalisation, his claim is pretty easy to shoot down.

[Ramrod]

At the very least, modern science owes a debt to those with religious faith

erm....in the olden days, everyone had to profess religious faith or they were very likely to find themselves being burned to death......because religion is oh so very tolerant of unbelievers
It's a bit like saying breathing is responsible for scientific invention because all the scientists who have ever lived have breathed.....

Originally Posted by Ramrod

erm....in the olden days, everyone had to profess religious faith or they were very likely to find themselves being burned to death......because religion is oh so very tolerant of unbelievers
It's a bit like saying breathing is responsible for scientific invention because all the scientists who have ever lived have breathed.....

I get the feeling you're not in the mood for a calm and rational exchange of ideas today.

Wikipedia:

The classical period of witch-hunts in Europe falls into the Early Modern period or about 1450 to 1700, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in tens of thousands of executions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

Doesn't really match up with the period of scientific discovery in which Faraday and others were working. And your parallel with breathing ... sorry, but that's just silly.

I don't really have time to spend the afternoon Googling for pages that demonstrate you're simply deploying assumptions and prejudices in place of reasoned argument, much as it's fun.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chris T

As a sweeping generalisation, his claim is pretty easy to shoot down.

lol......
So religion isn't trying to subvert the theory of evolution as we speak?
Scientific basis for the age of the earth....recognised by fundamentalists? Nope!
Galileo was threatened with death unless he recanted....
Early anatomical study (and hence the progress of medicine) was banned (on pain of burning.......I wonder how many millions have died because of delayed discoveries on that front?
The church persisted in believing that the earth was the center of the universe for a millenium.....setting back astronomy and associated sciences.
Darwins ideas were (and still are)rubbished because god created man, not evolution....
......against this you put the statement that many scientists were religious

I agree, however, that religion was the impertus behind much study but once the study came up with conclusions that religion didn't like then that study and it's conclusions was surpressed.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

lol......
So religion isn't trying to subvert the theory of evolution as we speak?
Scientific basis for the age of the earth....recognised by fundamentalists? Nope!
Galileo was threatened with death unless he recanted....
Early anatomical study (and hence the progress of medicine) was banned (on pain of burning.......I wonder how many millions have died because of delayed discoveries on that front?
The church persisted in believing that the earth was the center of the universe for a millenium.....setting back astronomy and associated sciences.
Darwins ideas were (and still are)rubbished because god created man, not evolution....
......against this you put the statement that many scientists were religious

I agree, however, that religion was the impertus behind much study but once the study came up with conclusions that religion didn't like then that study and it's conclusions was surpressed.

None of these statements - many of which I disagree with, to varying degrees - support the basic, wide-ranging generalisation you made earlier, namely:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

<snip>Historically, religion has been a major damper on scientific discovery. From anatomy to medicine to physics to astronomy; religion has proven itself to be a massive negative force....

[Mr Angry]

Interested parties can access the Faraday papers via this link.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Chris T

None of these statements - many of which I disagree with, to varying degrees - support the basic, wide-ranging generalisation you made earlier

None of them? Are you sure?! Seems to me that they do support my assertion....

edit......anyway, sorry for making a comment that has dragged us so far off topic

[papa smurf]

oh joy your still at it

Sorry Chris but if your saying religion has never held back science well i don't know what planet your on hell even the local catholic priest that i have regular debates with acknowledges that religion has delayed scientific advance whenever it could.

[Gareth]

So, has everyone had enough time to ponder whether they agree or disagree with the comments made by the church? Show of hands, anyone...?