Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops

Originally Posted by Derek S

Just don't park too close to the entrance, or leave anything on the back seat covered with a blanket.

Out of curiousity were there many churches flooded over the last few days?

I know what you're thinking, but it doesn't work like that. Plenty of God-fearing Jews were exiled to Babylon, including Jeremiah, one of the great prophets of the Old Testament.

I'm still not siding with or against the Bishops here, but another observation: they are not pointing the finger at individuals, they are not claiming that Mrs Jones of 42 Acacia Avenue has had her house drenched for something she specifically has done. They are suggesting that British society is suffering a judgement from God because it has moved away from the way of life he demands.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Russ B

I can respect your stance there however if that's the case for most people, it makes you wonder why people are getting upset over something, as Chris mentions earlier, that they don't believe in.

Ah, but it's not that simple. Christianity is an evangelical religion. We've all been subjected to its teachings (against our will for many of us). It's not simply a case of just ignore them if you're not interested. They (well some of them) keep trying to interfere with our lives.

In the Telegraph article, the Rt Rev Graham Dow, Bishop of Carlisle, argued that "the floods are not just a result of a lack of respect for the planet, but also a judgment on society's moral decadence.
"This is a strong and definite judgment because the world has been arrogant in going its own way," he said. "We are reaping the consequences of our moral degradation, as well as the environmental damage that we have caused.
The bishop, who is a leading evangelical, said that people should heed the stories of the Bible, which described the downfall of the Roman empire as a result of its immorality.
"We are in serious moral trouble because every type of lifestyle is now regarded as legitimate," he said.
"In the Bible, institutional power is referred to as 'the beast', which sets itself up to control people and their morals. Our government has been playing the role of God in saying that people are free to act as they want," he said, adding that the introduction of recent pro-gay laws highlighted its determination to undermine marriage.
"The sexual orientation regulations [which give greater rights to gays] are part of a general scene of permissiveness. We are in a situation where we are liable for God's judgment, which is intended to call us to repentance."

What will we be judged on next? To quote Jeremy Hardy -
"As you clearly say, it states in Leviticus Chapter 18 Verse 22 that homosexuality is an abomination. Which reminds me—there are a couple of things I need guidance on. Firstly, If I wanted to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7, how much could I expect to make from such a deal? Also, my colleague Pete insists on working on the sabbath. Exodus clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it OK to get some outside help? Lastly, does the whole city really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side. And when I burn my mother for wearing garments made from two different threads, do I torch her whole or just a bit?”

[Russ]

Originally Posted by danielf

. It's not simply a case of just ignore them if you're not interested.

Well...yes it is! Did that story have to be posted here? Do you, the CF membership get evangelical disturbances on the site? The last time I remember that happening was a spammer preaching the word of God but his post was immediately deleted and is now banned.

So going a little deeper, you have to wonder why it was posted here.

Originally Posted by danielf

They (well some of them) keep trying to interfere with our lives.

So do telesales people but I don't see threads having a go at them popping up all the time

Originally Posted by foreverwar

<snippage>

I'm assuming you Googled to find the Jeremy Hardy quote ... you could save me writing another long essay on the application of and principles behind Old Testament Law, and how and why you decide which parts of it still apply in the Christian era, by Googling a little more. You might even come across posts I've made about it in the past on this forum.

[BBKing]

They are suggesting that British society is suffering a judgement from God because it has moved away from the way of life he demands.

It wouldn't be, say, because money for flood prevention works has been withheld or spent in the south (where I am, about 400 yards from the river, in fact)? It's all very well pontificating, but it doesn't help stop people's houses being flooded. Private Eye pointed out last week that it was well known that York was short of several hundred million pounds for flood barriers.

After all, rain isn't exactly unknown in the UK, the relative heights of bits of land and their proximity to rivers isn't a mystery and neither is the increased danger of flooding if you concrete over flood plains and low-lying land. Let's get some perspective on here and use our God/evolution*-given intelligence and cunning to put some proper engineering in. We're supposed to be *good* at that in the UK. Taking advice from bishops on this is as pointless as making Jade Goody professor of mathematics at Cambridge.

* delete according to taste

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Well...yes it is! Did that story have to be posted here? Do you, the CF membership get evangelical disturbances on the site? The last time I remember that happening was a spammer preaching the word of God but his post was immediately deleted and is now banned.

So go a little deeper, you have to wonder why it was posted here.

That reasoning applies to the whole of CF basement. I suppose it was posted because it is a real life annoyance.

Originally Posted by Russ B

So do telesales people but I don't see threads having a go at them popping up all the time

They don't interfere with people's lives as in telling people how to live their life. Oh, and search the site for TPS and see if threads about telesales people pop up.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by danielf

That reasoning applies to the whole of CF basement. I suppose it was posted because it is a real life annoyance.

OK but I'm still trying to work out what exactly people are finding to be so 'annoying'.

Originally Posted by danielf

They don't interfere with people's lives as in telling people how to live their life.

To be fair the vast majority don't tell people how to live their lives. Firstly they ask if you'd like to discuss the bible. A bit like the vampire story - you have to invite them in first, If you've done that then you've got no right to complain

Originally Posted by danielf

Oh, and search the site for TPS and see if threads about telesales people pop up.

I'd say there are more threads about religion than telesales...

Originally Posted by BBKing

It wouldn't be, say, because money for flood prevention works has been withheld or spent in the south (where I am, about 400 yards from the river, in fact)? It's all very well pontificating, but it doesn't help stop people's houses being flooded. Private Eye pointed out last week that it was well known that York was short of several hundred million pounds for flood barriers.

After all, rain isn't exactly unknown in the UK, the relative heights of bits of land and their proximity to rivers isn't a mystery and neither is the increased danger of flooding if you concrete over flood plains and low-lying land. Let's get some perspective on here and use our God/evolution*-given intelligence and cunning to put some proper engineering in. We're supposed to be *good* at that in the UK. Taking advice from bishops on this is as pointless as making Jade Goody professor of mathematics at Cambridge.

* delete according to taste

If - hypothetically - God wished to show his displeasure with the UK by bringing extreme weather and flooding to our shores, then any or all of the factors you have cited could have been subject to the Divine intervention necessary to bring those decisions and conditions about.

The precise means by which human will and divine purpose coexist in the universe has been argued over for centuries but theologians generally agree that it does, and I doubt any of them would be persuaded to abandon their faith as a result of a humanistic view of events such as the one you offer.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Russ B

To be fair the vast majority don't tell people how to live their lives. Firstly they ask if you'd like to discuss the bible. A bit like the vampire story - you have to invite them in first, If you've done that then you've got no right to complain

If only... It's ingrained in society. I spent 6 years of my life at a fairly religious secondary school. Start (and occasionally end) the day with bible reading and prayer. Sing psalms in music lessons. There was little choice there, apart from choosing another school, which was not viable for academic reasons. I've had my fair share of uninvited discussion.

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'd say there are more threads about religion than telesales...

Perhaps that's an indication of how annoyed people are with the two?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by danielf

If only... It's ingrained in society. I spent 6 years of my life at a fairly religious secondary school. Start (and occasionally end) the day with bible reading and prayer. Sing psalms in music lessons. There was little choice there, apart from choosing another school, which was not viable for academic reasons. I've had my fair share of uninvited discussion.

Would I be right in assuming the majority of the CF populous have left school behind?

Originally Posted by danielf

Perhaps that's an indication of how annoyed people are with the two?

Well it's an indication of something, I won't be so cynical as to suggest anything of course..!

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Would I be right in assuming the majority of the CF populous have left school behind?

Quite the contrary in fact. I get the impression many people here would not look out of place in a nursery

Seriously though. It does indicate how ingrained in society religion is. It's difficult to escape it, invited or uninvited.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by danielf

Seriously though. It does indicate how ingrained in society religion is. It's difficult to escape it, invited or uninvited.

If what you say is true, it's still hardly intrusive. You can chose to live your life without religion causing a major inconvenience, surely?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Are we saying we cant discuss religion on the Forum? or we should be deterred from doing so?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Russ B

If what you say is true, it's still hardly intrusive. You can chose to live your life without religion causing a major inconvenience, surely?

Well, I think it is only fair to say that my spell at secondary school has caused a bit of resentment, so perhaps I've grown somewhat allergic to it.

Incidentally, it appears to have done so with quite a few of my class mates who were brought up in a religious manner but decided against it. 'Hardly intrusive' are not the words I would use to describe the experience some of them had.