Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops - Page 4

**Chris** · 02-07-2007, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielf

This Bishop apparently thinks that either he is qualified to comment on God's intentions and thoughts when it comes to happenings in daily life (which I would imagine religious people would find extremely arrogant; I'd be interested to hear what you think of this), or thinks he can use his religion to comment on how other people lead their life, which I find extremely arrogant and patronising.

I would think anybody who believed themselves qualified to comment on God's thoughts to be somewhat deluded, and possibly arrogant, maybe even a little unhinged.

The only proper position of a Christian teacher is humility and absolute reliance on God, and not reliant on a sense of personal qualifications. However that does not preclude the possibility of God asking such a person to deliver a prophetic message. In such cases the person speaking would indeed be in a position of commenting on God's thoughts on specific issues. This is why, in Christian terminology, we're told to 'discern the spirits' - know the man, know his ministry. I don't know the Bishop of Carlisle (assuming that's who it was, I've not seen a link yet), hence my reluctance to weigh in on either side on this specific issue.

It would be dishonest of me not to point out, however, that the principle of God using major calamities - sometimes military, sometimes natural disasters - as a means of exercising judgment at a national or cultural level, with the intention of causing people to reassess their lives and turn to him, is well established in the Bible. The destruction of the Temple and the exile of the Israelites to Babylon in the 6th century BC is directly attributed by both historical and prophetic authors in the Old Testament to Israel's disobedience and God's judgment as a direct consequence.

I don't expect any non-believer to simply roll over as a result of this and say 'well that's ok then' - simply to accept that such a view is far from alien to Biblical Christianity and to be just a little less surprised to hear someone mention it. Again, I stress, I'm not using this general point to validate the specifics of what the Bishop has apparently said this weekend.

To your final point - any religion which sets out to promote a certain way of life in its adherents, and to persuade other people to join up and adopt that same way of life, is inevitably going to end up saying that it believes one lifestyle is better than another. It has always been so and it always will be so. All that has changed is the current fashion for relativism and the privatisation of 'truth'. It's not surprising that a generation that has been taught that truth is a personal thing rather than an absolute would be offended when it clashes with a body of thought that holds truth to be an absolute concept.

danielf · 02-07-2007, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris T

I would think anybody who believed themselves qualified to comment on God's thoughts to be somewhat deluded, and possibly arrogant, maybe even a little unhinged.

The only proper position of a Christian teacher is humility and absolute reliance on God, and not reliant on a sense of personal qualifications. However that does not preclude the possibility of God asking such a person to deliver a prophetic message. In such cases the person speaking would indeed be in a position of commenting on God's thoughts on specific issues. This is why, in Christian terminology, we're told to 'discern the spirits' - know the man, know his ministry. I don't know the Bishop of Carlisle (assuming that's who it was, I've not seen a link yet), hence my reluctance to weigh in on either side on this specific issue.

linky in post #5: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34341134-post5.html

No mention of a prophetic message. The word arrogance is used though.

Quote:

To your final point - any religion which sets out to promote a certain way of life in its adherents, and to persuade other people to join up and adopt that same way of life, is inevitably going to end up saying that it believes one lifestyle is better than another. It has always been so and it always will be so. All that has changed is the current fashion for relativism and the privatisation of 'truth'. It's not surprising that a generation that has been taught that truth is a personal thing rather than an absolute would be offended when it clashes with a body of thought that holds truth to be an absolute concept.

Not surprising perhaps, but irritating and offensive (to me) nonetheless.

Russ · 02-07-2007, 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielf

Which begs the question of who started this. I think there is a case to be made for saying the bishop did.

Right....so what exactly is it that people are objecting to here, the fact the man gave his opinion, that he believes these natural disasters are of God or what he believes is the reason for them?

**Hugh** · 02-07-2007, 12:01

In my case, what he believes is the reason for them.

danielf · 02-07-2007, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Right....so what exactly is it that people are objecting to here, the fact the man gave his opinion, that he believes these natural disasters are of God or what he believes is the reason for them?

Well, one of the things I object to is that, to my mind, the man gave his opinion, but wrapped it up as divine truth. There is no mention of this being his opinion, rather we have a high ranking religious person apparently claiming this as truth. The same absolute truth which he apparently thinks gives him the right to pass judgment on other people's life. Plus, with him being high ranking, is it surprising when people think he is speaking not just for himself, but for a wider community from his church? I think the man is either extremely arrogant, extremely stupid, or both.

Russ · 02-07-2007, 12:16

Thank you

Let's keep this going if we can....

Saaf_laandon_mo · 02-07-2007, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Well, it HAS only been about 2 weeks since the last religion-bashing thread

depends what religion you follow.............

Russ · 02-07-2007, 12:28

Not really. When I called it "Christianity-bashing" the usual suspects are quick to point out that it's "religion-bashing" apparently.

Anyway, do you object to what he's said? If so my question in post 48 stands.

Nugget · 02-07-2007, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Right....so what exactly is it that people are objecting to here, the fact the man gave his opinion, that he believes these natural disasters are of God or what he believes is the reason for them?

Personally, I have to say that I object to the fact that he's alluding to it being a 'punishment' for, amongst other things, the increased permissiveness within society. To be honest, I'm not bothered if that's his opinion because he's fully entitled to it, but I would prefer not to be told that it's an indictment of Western society by a 'higher being' that I choose not to believe in

injuneer · 02-07-2007, 12:40

There must be a lot of permissiveness going on in South Asia then, over 2 million people displaced by flooding there!

Russ · 02-07-2007, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugget

Personally, I have to say that I object to the fact that he's alluding to it being a 'punishment' for, amongst other things, the increased permissiveness within society. To be honest, I'm not bothered if that's his opinion because he's fully entitled to it, but I would prefer not to be told that it's an indictment of Western society by a 'higher being' that I choose not to believe in

I can respect your stance there however if that's the case for most people, it makes you wonder why people are getting upset over something, as Chris mentions earlier, that they don't believe in.

BBKing · 02-07-2007, 12:48

Quote:

God's judgment on the immorality and greed of modern society,

Speaking as a godless heathen living in sin and currently covetous of a new iPod and a Wii, my house is nice and dry and my garden is nice and green. Must be some other immoral, greedy people who aroused the Almighty's wrath. I'm off to book a table at Tiger Tiger.

[Of course, people could have been on the receiving end of floodwater because it bloody rained a lot, but that would be the obvious, rational, scientific explanation, wouldn't it, and we can't be doing with that]

**Chris** · 02-07-2007, 12:49

PMSL at the Google banner ad I just saw at the top of this page

http://www.cthree.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=552

Derek · 02-07-2007, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBKing

I'm off to book a table at Tiger Tiger.

Just don't park too close to the entrance, or leave anything on the back seat covered with a blanket.

Out of curiousity were there many churches flooded over the last few days?

Nugget · 02-07-2007, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I can respect your stance there however if that's the case for most people, it makes you wonder why people are getting upset over something, as Chris mentions earlier, that they don't believe in.

I suppose that, in my case, 'upset' is probably the wrong term in that I've got no problem with his opinion as it stands - my problem is that he's used a sweeping generalisation