Madeleine McCann

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Mothers do it all the time all over the world, either physically leaving them, or by catching up on some well deserved sleep.
Don't forget, if you're bathing one child, the other is normally left alone in another room, after all, you shouldn't leave a child in the bath...

I agree, but that's completely different from making a decision to leave your children alone, whilst you are somewhere else enjoying a meal. They were not bathing their children. They were not catching up on well deserved sleep. They were out enjoying themselves.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

...If you left a child alone in your house for 2 hours, would you expect it to be abducted?...

I can honestly say that I would never, ever leave 3 children of that age alone in a house. Full stop. There is no knowing what might happen to them. Responsible parents just wouldn't do it.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

...They had no way of knowing that their daughter had been targetted, and as has already been pointed out, if they hadn't taken her during the night, then they'd have grabbed their oppertunity at another time...

There is no way of knowing this for certain, and it could only happen if they were left alone, again.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Wasn't it her bedroom window that was forced open?
Her siblings weren't woken either were they?
So you're saying that if her parents were next door, then the window would have made more noise? Or the abducter would have made more noise? Simply because the parents were in the next room?
How do you work that one out?

I am saying nothing of the sort!
However, would the abducter still have struck, knowing that there were 2 adults around? I think not.

As for the siblings, I don't know if they were woken or not. Has it been reported anywhere? Are they at an age where they could give accurate answers anyway?

[Chicken]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I heard that the complex is very geared towards children ...

Obviously not enough or somebody would of noticed her going.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

Do you really think the abductors didnt know they were out? i accept they targeted her but it makes no difference to me the parents should not have left the children

So wether the parents were in the building or not would have made no difference if the abducters were determined enough to break in and steal a child, yet it's their fault she was abducted because they weren't sat next door oblivious to the abduction?


Out of interest, back in the winter there was an incident where a man got into a house and abducted a little girl from the bath, while her family were in the house. Was it their fault too?

where have I said its their fault? I see a misquote there mate. I have said all along the parents should not have left the kids not just because of abduction risks but for other reasons to.

See rammy there is every need for me to keep going on cuz no one takes any notice

EDIT ive just used the search feature and I can not find any of my posts in this thread saying the parents are to blame or it is their fault ive constantly said it was wrong to leave the children and highlighted other risks besides abduction

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

where have I said its their fault? I see a misquote there mate. I have said all along the parents should not have left the kids not just because of abduction risks but for other reasons to.

See rammy there is every need for me to keep going on cuz no one takes any notice

Things happen whether parents are there or not as demonstrated by the bath abduction while the house was full of people.

When I was 2 all my mates and I used to play out on our own in the cul-de-sac we lived in. No parents were around.
Things happen, it's part of life. I got my head stuck in a gate trying to get into a friends garden, loads of bumps and grazes, mate broke his arm falling from a swing. It's called life.
In Saudi at the age of 5 I was able to walk around large shopping centres on my own while my mum and sister did their own thing. I the Red Sea I spent hours alone swimming up and down the shore and reef.
I've seen the detremental effect on children that wrapping them up in cotton wool can do, it's not a pretty sight!
Messed up kids that can't think for themselves, poor imaginations, difficulty socialising, bed wetting until early teens.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Out of interest, back in the winter there was an incident where a man got into a house and abducted a little girl from the bath, while her family were in the house. Was it their fault too?

I've said on more than one occasion, if parents are in the garden, in a different room, mayb downstairs, and the child is abducted from the house then the parents have taken reasonable precautions to stop anything happening to their child. I am not just restricting this to abduction.

For example my daughter generally plays in the backroom or the garden on her own. when she is in the garden we sit in the backroom or kitchen so we can hear and see her. If she's in the backroom and everything goes quiet we check on her. THis is not incase she's been abducted, but if shes up to something or that she's hurt herself etc etc. By doing this we feel that we are taking all the precautions necessary incase something does happen to her.

People keep saying well Maddie could have been abducted while her parents were next door, and its not very differnet to leaving your child alone in one room whilst your in another.

In my opinion leaving your children alone at home while your out dining is no where near the same as being in the garden whilst they are inside. It is not the same as having your child abducted from the bath whilst you are downstairs either.

The fact that we have instances where children have been abducted from a house whilst the family is at home should hilight the fact that you should not leave kids home ALONE.

Having and looking after kids is not easy, and it does mean you have to make certain sacrifices whilst bringing them up. Dining out while your 2 year olds are home ALONE would be one of them.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Things happen whether parents are there or not as demonstrated by the bath abduction while the house was full of people.

When I was 2 all my mates and I used to play out on our own in the cul-de-sac we lived in. No parents were around.
Things happen, it's part of life. I got my head stuck in a gate trying to get into a friends garden, loads of bumps and grazes, mate broke his arm falling from a swing. It's called life.
In Saudi at the age of 5 I was able to walk around large shopping centres on my own while my mum and sister did their own thing. I the Red Sea I spent hours alone swimming up and down the shore and reef.
I've seen the detremental effect on children that wrapping them up in cotton wool can do, it's not a pretty sight!
Messed up kids that can't think for themselves, poor imaginations, difficulty socialising, bed wetting until early teens.

no sorry for the misquote I see

Still imo does not alter the fact the children should not have been left

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Things happen whether parents are there or not as demonstrated by the bath abduction while the house was full of people.

When I was 2 all my mates and I used to play out on our own in the cul-de-sac we lived in. No parents were around.
Things happen, it's part of life. I got my head stuck in a gate trying to get into a friends garden, loads of bumps and grazes, mate broke his arm falling from a swing. It's called life.
In Saudi at the age of 5 I was able to walk around large shopping centres on my own while my mum and sister did their own thing. I the Red Sea I spent hours alone swimming up and down the shore and reef.
I've seen the detremental effect on children that wrapping them up in cotton wool can do, it's not a pretty sight!
Messed up kids that can't think for themselves, poor imaginations, difficulty socialising, bed wetting until early teens.

I donot think you can compare the above with leaving 3 under 4s 'home' alone whilst the parents are out wining and dining. I donot think any of us are advocating wrapping up our kids in cotton wool, and on a further note i do think times have changed from 20 years ago to now. I remember when I was 7/8, we'd be out till 9 oclock playing in summer. There's no way I'd let my 8 year old (i i had one) do that now though. It's most likely nothing would happen to him, but I am not willing to take the risk.

I donot think that by not leaving your kids alone at home, you'd be messing with their minds. Remember these are 4 year old and under we are talking about. I fail to see how leaving them home alone is reasonable or good for their well being at that age.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

no sorry for the misquote I see

You are saying that the parents should not have left her alone, therefore placing the blame on them for leaving her alone. Not the exact words of "it's their fault" but it amounts to the same.
Or are you saying that they weren't wrong to leave her alone?

in your opinion it does in mine as ive said over and over again the other things that could have happened anyway dude you think what you want about what I mean I really dont care

The person to blame for the abduction is the abductor
The people who should have acted more responsibly are the parents clear enough???

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I donot think you can compare the above with leaving 3 under 4s 'home' alone whilst the parents are out wining and dining. I donot think any of us are advocating wrapping up our kids in cotton wool, and on a further note i do think times have changed from 20 years ago to now. I remember when I was 7/8, we'd be out till 9 oclock playing in summer. There's no way I'd let my 8 year old (i i had one) do that now though. It's most likely nothing would happen to him, but I am not willing to take the risk.

I donot think that by not leaving your kids alone at home, you'd be messing with their minds. Remember these are 4 year old and under we are talking about. I fail to see how leaving them home alone is reasonable or good for their well being at that age.

Perhaps you are unaware of the thinking behind the idea of not running to a baby every time it cries?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children have a history of not waking during the night?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children have no history of sticking bmx brake cables into mains sockets or playing with matches?
Perhaps you are unaware that the parents were unaware their daughter was being targetted?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children were quite capable of sorting themselves out if they needed the toilet during the night?
Perhaps you are unaware that there were people next door who would have raised the alarm if the children started crying?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Perhaps you are unaware of the thinking behind the idea of not running to a baby every time it cries?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children have a history of not waking during the night?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children have no history of sticking bmx brake cables into mains sockets or playing with matches?
Perhaps you are unaware that the parents were unaware their daughter was being targetted?
Perhaps you are unaware that the children were quite capable of sorting themselves out if they needed the toilet during the night?
Perhaps you are unaware that there were people next door who would have raised the alarm if the children started crying?

I could misquote your stance and say your advocating leaving 3 very young children unsupervised but surely you wouldnt would you????

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

in your opinion it does in mine as ive said over and over again the other things that could have happened anyway dude you think what you want about what I mean I really dont care

The person to blame for the abduction is the abductor
The people who should have acted more responsibly are the parents clear enough???

They know their kids better than anyone else, and if they felt that it was ok to leave them for a meal while checking on them regularly, while being sat across the way from them, that doesn't strike me as irresponsible.
If they'd gone out drinking at one of the nightclubs in town with no intention of coming back for hours and having no one check in on them, that would be irresponsible.
And you do mind what people think you mean, other wise you wouldn't be going on and on about it so much

Originally Posted by Xaccers

They know their kids better than anyone else, and if they felt that it was ok to leave them for a meal while checking on them regularly, while being sat across the way from them, that doesn't strike me as irresponsible.
If they'd gone out drinking at one of the nightclubs in town with no intention of coming back for hours and having no one check in on them, that would be irresponsible.
And you do mind what people think you mean, other wise you wouldn't be going on and on about it so much

well look man one of them is now missing they did a stand up job of looking after them

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

well look man one of them is now missing they did a stand up job of looking after them

So you are blaming them!
How about appologising for accusing me of misquoting you?