Bye Bye America

[BBKing]

The USA just abolished itself - they gave George W Bush the power to imprison anyone anywhere in the world indefinitely without legal representation or knowing the case against them. That's it, man, Game Over. Back to autocratic monarchs. Quite why the world's leading light of freedom (tm) has turned itself into a reasonable copy of Czarist Russia is beyond me. However, it does mean that any mutt accusing me of anti-Americanism is now implicitly supporting torture and tyranny. Conversely, anti-Americanism is a (the?) legitimate position for anyone who supports freedom and accountable government, you know, the things the USA was set up for. Pro-US, anti-America, that's me.

Luckily we still have, thanks to Sir Winston Churchill and other enlightened post-war Brits (and no thanks to Tony Blair, the Conservatives or the Sun), the European Convention on Human Rights (http://www.echr.info/) under which this law would be instantly and incontrovertibly illegal*. We need to start teaching the USA sharp lessons in the benefits of liberal democracy and the rule of law, since they appear to have forgotten.

Of course it's not just wet lefties who think this:

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_s...ve_the_ki.html

* It contravenes, so far as I can see:

Article 3
Article 5 Sections 1(a), 2, 3, 4, 5
Article 6, every section
Article 7, both sections
Article 13
Article 17

[hatedbythemail]

i dont think you have to be anti-american to recognise the danger and stupidity of this. anti the american administration certainly but thats a totally different idea. im anti our government of the moment but doesnt mean im anti-british. so if we could nail that anti-american line now and focus on this dangerous bit of legislation

[BBKing]

Hence my distinction between being anti-American and anti-US. The US I'm entirely in favour of, 'America', as expressed by, effectively, the President becoming an old-school 'L'Etat, c'est moi' absolute monarch, is not something anyone with the remotest pretensions to being a civilised human being could stomach. Indeed, as things stand it's impossible, logically, to support both America as currently legally constituted and the ideal of the US as set out in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. The biggest threat to the US is Bush and co., not bin Laden, Ahmedinijad or Kim il wotsit.

Blair let something slip yesterday by saying he'd much rather detain terrorist suspects than put them under control orders, forgetting that the (illegal) detention powers passed in 2001 never gave him the right to detain British citizens. That'll come soon, and they'll point at the US law as an example to follow.

[hatedbythemail]

i totally agree that blair will see this as a trend setting move. the response to the current control order controversy indicates he will use any excuse to propel a more authoritarian agenda. interesting incidentally to note that pone of the "terrorist suspects" apparently "on the run" didnt in fact breach his control order. the police/home office didnt renew it in time.

[eddie00001]

Parts of the law only applies to non-US citizens. US citizens can still apply under the old English law of habeas corpus to challenge their detention (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6058970.stm). Its also believed that non-US citizens are likely to challenge this in the Supreme Court. Still, not the best law to bring in from the 'Leader of the Free World'

[Russ]

Originally Posted by BBKing

The USA just abolished itself - they gave George W Bush the power to imprison anyone anywhere in the world indefinitely without legal representation or knowing the case against them.

Ok how does that work? He can imprison my next-door neighbour without telling him what the charge is? So he can arrange for him to be extradited and we will automatically comply?

I will always be bewildered as to why so many US voters vote for George W Bush and the Republican party. The thing that gets me is that this whole war on terror thing has been campaigned in the name of Freedom, which sometimes makes me wonder if these people are actually taking the ****.

I always wonder the how the hell they think they can get away with this kind of autocratic legislation, and why they would even do it in the first place. Do they know something about the terror threat that we don't? Or any other threat to our security? Or are they just people who hate freedom?

Anyway the US mid terms are coming up in November. I don't know what the Dems' stand on this legislation is, but hopefully they are against it, and if they take control of congress in November then maybe they can do something about it.

There are a couple of scary parts to this law -

Bush and anyone else who committed what would have been an illegal act have now got a get-out-of-jail card

It is up to the Administration's interpretation of the law, not the Judiciary (so much for the balance of power) - anyone can be arrested and held.

It is up to Bush to define "torture".

The really scary points are that the definition is up to people appointed by Bush or Rumsfeld - eeeek! They can then take as long as they want before they hold a trial, and even if found innocent by this tribunal, the verdict can be ignored.

You can't have a civilian defence lawyer unless they are cleared for "SECRET" - shouldn't think there will be many of those around.

They can break the law when gathering evidence, and use rumours as fact.

Key points of the Bill
Establishes special rules for military-commission trials for Al Qaeda suspects accused of committing war crimes. The rules permit the exclusion of a defendant from his trial if classified evidence is being presented, and the admission of hearsay and coerced statements as evidence.
• Authorizes a three-officer military panel to determine a detainee's status as an enemy combatant eligible for indefinite detention in US custody. This is in lieu of the ability to file a habeas corpus petition challenging the legality of the detention in federal court.
• Creates a retroactive legal defense for US personnel who engaged in harsh interrogation tactics from September 2001 to December 2005. Also narrows the range of activities that might constitute a violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions outlawing torture and cruel treatment.
• Expands the definition of an unlawful enemy combatant to provide that anyone who offers "material support" to someone engaged in hostilities against the US can be held indefinitely in military detention, regardless of whether he or she actually engaged in hostilities. Also provides that only noncitizens held as unlawful enemy combatants may be tried by a military commission.

or as Wikipedia explain it
"An “unlawful enemy combatant” can be any person – not excluding American citizens - determined to be one by a “competent tribunal” established by the President or the Secretary of Defense [Sec.948a(1)(ii)]. What comprises a competent tribunal – or by what criteria they would make such a determination - is not defined.
The Act changes pre-existing law to explicitly suspend the writ of habeas corpus for detainees who are not U.S. citizens [Section 7(a)]. This provision applies to all cases pending at the time the Act is enacted, as well as to all such future cases.
If the government chooses to prosecute, a military commission is convened for this purpose. The following rules are some of those established for trying unlawful enemy combatants who are not citizens of the United States. [Sec.948b (a)] The Act does not exclude these rules from being applied when trying unlawful enemy combatants who are American citizens.

• Certain sections of the Uniform Code of Military Justice are deemed inapplicable - including some relating to a speedy trial [Sec.948b (d)(1)(A)], compulsory self-incrimination [Sec.948b (d)(1)(B)], and pre-trial investigation [Sec.948b (d)(1)(C)].

• A civilian defense attorney may not be used unless they have clearance to view materials classified Secret. [Sec.949c(b)(3)(D)]

• Based on his findings, the judge may introduce hearsay evidence [Sec.949a(b)(2)(E)(i)], evidence obtained without a search warrant [Sec.949a(b)(2)(B)], evidence obtained when the degree of coercion is disputed [Sec.948r (d)], or classified evidence not made available to the defense [Sec.949d(f)(2)(B)].

• A finding of Guilty requires only a 2/3 majority [Sec.949m(a)]

• No defendant may invoke the Geneva Conventions in legal proceedings on their behalf. [Section 5(a)]

• The President determines “the meaning and application” of the Geneva Conventions banning the torture of prisoners. [Sec.6 (a)(3)(A)]

• The accused may be tried for the same offense a second time “with his consent” [Sec.949h(a)].

• If the military commission returns a finding of Not Guilty, its convening authority is not required to take action on the findings. [Sec.950b(c)(3)]

So anyone thinking of visiting the US in the future, be very, very careful about what you say, and who you have associated with.

Nice summary from the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union)
" "The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions."

[injuneer]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

T

Nice summary from the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union)
" "The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions."

I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition !

Originally Posted by injuneer

I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition !

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!!


Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms


Get.......... the comfy chair!

[AndrewJ]

Sigh.

Someone just blown America up before it makes a bigger **** of it's self.

[hatedbythemail]

Originally Posted by Felinix_Devotion

Sigh.

Someone just blown America up before it makes a bigger **** of it's self.

now an act like that could i suspect be construed as being anti-american! ;-)

[injuneer]

Felinix will be getting a SWAT team crashing through the door very soon.

The North East and the West coast of the US is fine, it's just the redneck religious conservative electorate in the South that are occupying Washington

[lauzjp]

Originally Posted by Felinix_Devotion

Sigh.

Someone just blown America up before it makes a bigger **** of it's self.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 ----------

scaryness. does anyone know anything about echelon?