Tory economic policy (or lack of?)

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Back to the point of democracy - a majority in the House voted to pass the bill, but the "rebels" were determined to get their "payback" for being defeated, so continued to undermine the government of which they were a part. It was very amusing to watch (and somewhat painful), as in the 80's the Tory Reform Group had to take a sustained barrage of "traitors", "left-wing pinkos", and "you'll let Labour in if you don't show full support for the Government". As soon as it was the other way around, all bets were off - fairly hypocritical, imho. The Maastricht Rebels were the "Militant Tendency" of the Conservative Party.

And what about the *******s, members of John Major's own cabinet. Were they part of this 'militant tendency' too? Should they all have kept quiet to keep the Tories in power when they believed he was not acting in the best interests of the country?

Originally Posted by foreverwar

He acted in what he believed was the best interests of the country - and your vitriol is why I left politics in the early 90's; I entered politics to try and help people, and if I disagreed with some of them, that was my (and their) right. It was all about trying to go forward - unfortunately, some people just want to go back.

The deceit might just have been acceptable had things turned out well. But Major as one of the main supporters of Britain's entry to the ERM has very little to be proud of. He should have put his proposals for transfering sovereignty to the EU to the British people in a general election or a referendum. That would have been the democratic thing to do. And whatever makes you think I want to go back? You must think the only way forward is with the EU. Your party will not justify this. Can you? I didn't know you until about a week or so ago, so I didn't influence your decision to leave politics. And I have said nothing vitriolic; maybe you just can't take the heat of political debate. Joining politics to "try to help people" is very honourable but if helping them means selling them out to the EU, I'll pass, thanks.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Unfortunately, some extremists (in all parties) are of the opinion that, if you don't agree with them, you are the enemy, and must be destroyed; they would rather be defeated than "compromise their principles", and they are happy to take others down with them.

What is extreme about not wanting rule from the EU? And what compromises did Major offer?

You didn't answer my question ... "If you can show me how John Major's Tories were elected on a ticket of giving great swathes of sovereign power ...". We both know that no attempt was made to put the case to the people. Rather important for his decent, honourable, man of the people credentials, I would have thought.

Cabinet *******ds
Collective responsibility???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_responsibility
"Cabinet collective responsibility is constitutional convention in the states that use the Westminster System. It means that members of the Cabinet must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them."
It was strange that the same people who used to shout "Collective Responsibility" in the 80's, were able to ignore it in the 90's.

You say deceit - I say democratic government; and never the twain shall meet. I loved your point about "I have said nothing vitriolic", and then in the next line state "if helping them means selling out to the EU, I'll pass" - lmao. I say vitriol, you say reasoned discussion.

Your statement "You didn't answer my question ... "If you can show me how John Major's Tories were elected on a ticket of giving great swathes of sovereign power ...". Which of the other bills that were passed in his (re-elected) government, and which of the bills in Margaret Thatcher's government, were "put to the people"? Or do only the ones you disagree with count? He and his party were elected to govern in a representative manner, not a delegated manner - no government could rule in that manner.

It appears to me (imho) that you have re-justified to me the reasons I left politics - I accept that you have a viewpoint, and that you are entitled to put it, but it seems that others are not allowed to disagree with you; were you in the Federation of Conservative Students, perchance?

But in the end, your viewpoint was not that of the majority of the elected representatives in Government, and your viewpoint did not prevail. John Major's government were elected to govern, not to run back to the country everytime some right-wing loony got upset. I don't remember Maggie putting the Poll Tax to the country?

re vitriol - some quotes from your posts -
- If you think socialist tax policies are common sense I am surprised you have voted Tory all your life, although I suppose it depends on how long a life you have had.
- I hope you will carry on being proud to pay your tax bill
- Elective dictatorship anyone? But I understand you are satisfied with what is on offer so this doesn't concern you!
- Mainstream politicians support the enlargement of the EU, next in line is Romania and Bulgaria and their 29 million citizens, and even Turkey with its 69 million, 99% of whom are Muslim.
- Will the influx of more immigrants, especially muslim ones, help the British people in any way?
- Huge difference in culture perhaps? Honour killings and arranged marriages, race riots between ethnic groups, the growth in religious fundamentalism, and even suicide bombers.
- Our political elite's refusal to be honest about the EU and its intentions is as deceitful today as it has ever been. Any politician who thinks "Europe" isn't worth political debate is either an outright liar or a naive fool.
- John Major ... decent and honourable, you have to be joking!
- As a man of the people, he sucks!
- The deceit might just have been acceptable had things turned out well
- Most of them have now crossed over to the dark side

So, in summary -
An elected government, with Collective Cabinet Responsibility, passed a bill that you disagreed with - get over it.

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

Cabinet *******ds
Collective responsibility???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_responsibility
"Cabinet collective responsibility is constitutional convention in the states that use the Westminster System. It means that members of the Cabinet must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them."

So anyone selling their country out can hide behind a principle developed in the 18th century long before we became involved in the EU? No sorry I don't agree with that. Collective responsiblity when the public are being deceived about who governs them is wrong.

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

You say deceit - I say democratic government; and never the twain shall meet. I loved your point about "I have said nothing vitriolic", and then in the next line state "if helping them means selling out to the EU, I'll pass" - lmao. I say vitriol, you say reasoned discussion.

So how would you describe the actions of government in giving up sovereignty over the last 30 odd years? Do tell.

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

Your statement "You didn't answer my question ... "If you can show me how John Major's Tories were elected on a ticket of giving great swathes of sovereign power ...". Which of the other bills that were passed in his (re-elected) government, and which of the bills in Margaret Thatcher's government, were "put to the people"? Or do only the ones you disagree with count? He and his party were elected to govern in a representative manner, not a delegated manner - no government could rule in that manner.

Any bill giving up sovereignty to a entity as undemocratic as the EU should have been put to the people, unless the issue had already been properly identified in an election campaign. Politicians (including Thatcher) were too deceitful for that so it the issue was never discussed. Comparing this kind of bill with the poll tax is not valid; the poll tax was within an incoming British government's power to repeal. Nothing we have agreed to in the EU is. A power, or competence, once handed over to the EU becomes part of its sacred acquis communautaire and is never returned. Do you see the difference?

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

It appears to me (imho) that you have re-justified to me the reasons I left politics - I accept that you have a viewpoint, and that you are entitled to put it, but it seems that others are not allowed to disagree with you.

Of course you and anyone else is allowed to disagree, but you haven't satisfactorily justified the deceit imo, just as your party refuses to justify its actions. Can you say why membership of the EU is good for the British people? Also I am not particularly sorry to have 're-justified' your opinion given your view that John Major was in the right.

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

But in the end, your viewpoint was not that of the majority of the elected representatives in Government, and your viewpoint did not prevail. John Major's government were elected to govern, not to run back to the country everytime some right-wing loony got upset. I don't remember Maggie putting the Poll Tax to the country?

If the public had been properly informed of the government's plans, do you think they would have won the election? The Tories were obviously not confident enough to ask. John Major's government was not elected to hand over sovreignty. And you might like to explain why debate on the EU should be considered a "right wing looney" issue. Do a good job and you triumph, ok?

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

re vitriol - some quotes from your posts -
- If you think socialist tax policies are common sense I am surprised you have voted Tory all your life, although I suppose it depends on how long a life you have had.
- I hope you will carry on being proud to pay your tax bill
- Elective dictatorship anyone? But I understand you are satisfied with what is on offer so this doesn't concern you!
- Mainstream politicians support the enlargement of the EU, next in line is Romania and Bulgaria and their 29 million citizens, and even Turkey with its 69 million, 99% of whom are Muslim.
- Will the influx of more immigrants, especially muslim ones, help the British people in any way?
- Huge difference in culture perhaps? Honour killings and arranged marriages, race riots between ethnic groups, the growth in religious fundamentalism, and even suicide bombers.
- Our political elite's refusal to be honest about the EU and its intentions is as deceitful today as it has ever been. Any politician who thinks "Europe" isn't worth political debate is either an outright liar or a naive fool.
- John Major ... decent and honourable, you have to be joking!
- As a man of the people, he sucks!
- Most of them have now crossed over to the dark side

You are entitled to see honestly stated, and imo thoroughly deserved opinions (which I stand by), as vitriolic if you wish. On your scale the treatment meted out to the Maastricht rebels by Major and his whips must have been downright malevolent.

Originally Posted by Foreverwar

So, in summary -
An elected government, with Collective Cabinet Responsibility, passed a bill that you disagreed with - get over it.

When politicians start being a damn sight more honest, I'll be more than happy to. Until then, forget it.

Sorry, freezin, took me a while - didn't click till now.



UKIP alert, UKIP alert, UKIP alert (or is it Vanitas, sorry, Veritas?)

How is Bobby K-S, or has he moved on/founded another party yet?

[hatedbythemail]

am i allowed to say ukip are europhobic? ;-)

Hatedbythemail, you can say whatever you want to, but opinions carry more weight with a little detail.

Originally Posted by freezin

Hatedbythemail, you can say whatever you want to, but opinions carry more weight with a little detail.

Hope this helps

article by ex-researcher of UKIP
http://www.newstatesman.com/nssubsfi...N=200406140013

Independent
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=396
"Similarly, UKIP's claim to reject xenophobia and seek friendly relations with our European neighbours does not seem to match the evidence. Their website links to a guide called "European Union myths and follies", which cites Winston Churchill, speaking in 1918. "Once the apparatus of power is in the hands of The Brotherhood, all opposition, all contrary opinion must be extinguished by death ... You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." Churchill was talking about the Bolsheviks (and supported the idea of European Union) - but what's a few gulags when you're panic-mongering?"

http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200...b8aca98ca5.htm
"Newly elected MEPs from the anti-EU UK Independence Party have arrived in Brussels to hold their first press conference in the European Parliament.
Speaking on behalf of the group, ahead of his second term as an MEP, Nigel Farage said he was seeking an “amicable divorce” from the rest of Europe.
“We are not anti-European” he stressed, “we want to be friends with them,” but he made it clear that full withdrawal from the EU was his party’s top priority."

Is this a kind of "tough love"?

ps as for the UKIP (if in fact you are a member/supporter of it, and not Vanitas), it's like the 1990's in the Tory party all over again.
http://www.ukiphome.com/comments.asp?sid=608
"ANTHONY BUTCHER: BACK OUR NEW LEADER OR RESIGN FROM THE NEC
It's time to put up or shut up Anthony. Are you with us or against us?
We cannot move forward with NEC members pursuing an agenda that does not support our new leader who was elected with a comfortable majority."

and lo and behold
http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/about14375.html
"Please accept this letter as a formal resignation of my position on the UKIP NEC and of my party membership.

I believe that any new party leader should be given 6-12 months of absolute support to run things his way and stamp his vision on a party, but I do not feel that I am in a position to offer Nigel that support.

As an NEC member it is my responsibility to ensure that truth, democracy, legitimacy and professionalism are adhered to by the party leadership, on behalf of the members who elected me. Unfortunately, I do not feel that my standards are in any way compatible with the new leadership’s and will only result in more friction. Since I cannot see a way to support the new leader and also retain the integrity of my position, I have chosen to resign. I am not willing to put up with four more years of unnecessary arguments, personal abuse, lies and having common sense ideas ignored. "

Anthony Butcher was the UKIP PPC for Woodspring in 2005
http://www.anthony-butcher.co.uk/

It's deja vu all over again.

[hatedbythemail]

Originally Posted by freezin

Hatedbythemail, you can say whatever you want to, but opinions carry more weight with a little detail.

well, like tebbit, theyre not exactly fans of the eu are they. or am i missing pretty much the whole point of their existence?

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

this is their summary of themselves: "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union." so i stick by my europhobic comment (but you can remove the 'r' and 'o' if you so please ;- )

[quote=hatedbythemail;34130943...snip... so i stick by my europhobic comment (but you can remove the 'r' and 'o' if you so please ;- )[/quote]

What?

euphbic????? Is that a cross between a musical instrument and a biro?

[hatedbythemail]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

What?

euphbic????? Is that a cross between a musical instrument and a biro?

just the removal of the one 'o' blue smarty pants :-)

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

just the removal of the one 'o' blue smarty pants :-)

euophbic???? - still puzzled

Originally Posted by foreverwar

article by ex-researcher of UKIP
http://www.newstatesman.com/nssubsfi...N=200406140013

Independent
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=396

I've seen this before. We can discuss some of the stuff on that link from if you're up for it? Like his references to the Switzerland and Norway, or his claim that Ted Heath, John Major and Tony Blair have "dedicated their lives to serving Britain." I wouldn't expect you to agree with my views about Ted Heath and John Major, but how can you take the opinions of someone who thinks that Tony Blair has "dedicated" his "life to serving Britain" seriously!? And as for Rankin, there's not much love lost there.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200...b8aca98ca5.htm
Is this a kind of "tough love"?

Can't really see the problem with what Farage said. UKIP MEPs have said a great many things, and provided a much better opposition to Blair than the Tories have done. Why do we stay in? As before, answer this satisfactorily, and you triumph. You would not even need to justify the deceit. How for instance do you reconcile Tory MEPs membership of the EPP (the most federalist grouping in the EP) with their "in Europe, but not run by Europe" stance?

One of your own MPs, Bob Spink, MP for Castle Point in Essex, insisted that Ukip members were "very good people" who were simply trying to defend their country against "over-bearing" legislation from Brussels (after the some really crass remarks from Cameron).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...06/nukip06.xml

Originally Posted by foreverwar

ps as for the UKIP (if in fact you are a member/supporter of it, and not Vanitas), it's like the 1990's in the Tory party all over again. http://www.ukiphome.com/comments.asp?sid=608

So UKIP has a real democratic debate about the direction it should take. It's better to encourage such debate than the agreeing to go in the wrong (imo) direction. However, if you can show me a better party, I'll be pleased to consider it. (Veritas is now finished in all but name as far as I know, and I never supported it, not being an Kilroy-Silk admirer.) And UKIP's only similarity with the Tories of the 90s is in the fact that there was debate. UKIP wouldn't have had any involvement with the sell-out.

You'll be citing Labour MEP, Richard Corbett, to support your case next. He's always good for a laugh!

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

Well, like tebbit, theyre not exactly fans of the eu are they. or am i missing pretty much the whole point of their existence? this is their summary of themselves: "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union." so i stick by my europhobic comment (but you can remove the 'r' and 'o' if you so please ;- )

No they are not fans of the EU, but you can tell me why they should be if you like. If you think simply being being opposed to membership of the EU is to be xenophobic, you are way off the mark. I love Europe (and have lived on mainland Europe) but I don't think the EU is good for the people of this country.

Euphobic I assume means opposition to the EU, not opposition to Europe. If that is what Hatedbythemail meant, I thank him for the distinction.

"As for Rankin, not much love lost there" - lmao - thank you for your reasoned rebuttal.

Re Tony Blair - just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it is untrue - I disagree with some of TB's policies, but I do believe he means well, on the whole.

You keep stating "your party" & "your own MP"; no party is my party - I do not pay subscriptions to any political party.

Real debate? - driving out anyone who disagrees with you - real debate.

Luuuuuurve the way you keep using "deceit" - how about the deceit of the Tories who called anyone who spoke out of line in the 80's "traitors", yet turned round and did the same thing in the 90's - or was that "principles"?

Good luck in getting your first Westminster seat, as unfortunately, in 2005, out of the 495 candidates you put up, you won zero. And I hope you don't lose any more London Assembly members or Euro MP's, like the last two who are no longer UKIP MEPs (Robert Kilroy-Silk & Ashley Mote).

ps Pass on my congratulations to Nigel Farage on becoming the new Party Leader - he must have been pleased to get 44% of all the votes cast in this election (total of 7574, including 169 spoiled votes). It must have been nice to get that percentage, as his record in UK Parliament elections wasn't quite that good - to wit

Eastleigh by-election, 1994 - 952 votes, 1.4%
Salisbury, 1997 general election - 3,332 votes, 5.7%
Bexhill and Battle, 2001 general election - 3,474 votes, 7.8%
South Thanet, 2005 general election - 2,079 votes, 5.0%
Bromley and Chislehurst by-election, 2006 - 2,307 votes, 8.0%

Even in the MEP elections, he came second - it must be nice for him to win one outright for a change, even if it was with the voting turnout of a local council ward.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

"As for Rankin, not much love lost there" - lmao - thank you for your reasoned rebuttal.

Coming from someone who consistently ignores my questions, that is a bit rich. I didn't think it was worth the effort of dissecting the views of someone who apparently left the party in very acrimonious circumstances more than 2 years ago. All political parties attract all kinds of people, but his view of UKIP as a "bleak world of bigots who hated foreigners, gays and Muslims" is nothing like the one that I know, and I have met many people with UKIP associations, both party members and some of the hierarchy, in social and political circumstances.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Re Tony Blair - just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it is untrue - I disagree with some of TB's policies, but I do believe he means well, on the whole.

But ... dedicated his life to serving Britain? If he thinks what Blair has done is somehow serving his country, he and I have very different ideas on what it is to serve one's country.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

You keep stating "your party" & "your own MP"; no party is my party - I do not pay subscriptions to any political party.

My apologies for having tainted you with the Tory association. May I ask which party you are likely to vote for in the next election?

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Real debate? - driving out anyone who disagrees with you - real debate.

How have I done that? I have asked you to explain the Tory Party's (or the Labour party's deceit if you have transferred your allegiance to them) justification for its deceit and why it insists on staying in the EU and it's obvious that you can't. It's not much of a debate when you get to disregard questions you don't like. I have as far as I can tell answered your questions, obviously not in the way that suited you, but answered nevertheless. If there is anything I have missed, please do say.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Luuuuuurve the way you keep using "deceit" - how about the deceit of the Tories who called anyone who spoke out of line in the 80's "traitors", yet turned round and did the same thing in the 90's - or was that "principles"?

Perhaps you could explain what this "deceit" to which you refer relates to? I think the deceit of the British people is more important than the Tories desire to stay in power.

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Good luck in getting your first Westminster seat, as unfortunately, in 2005, out of the 495 candidates you put up, you won zero. And I hope you don't lose any more London Assembly members or Euro MP's, like the last two who are no longer UKIP MEPs (Robert Kilroy-Silk & Ashley Mote).

Oooh, painful. But true .

I still wouldn't vote for any of the deceitful mainstream parties. There's not much point in an opposition party having MPs when they consistently fail to perform their duty of holding the government to account. UKIP MPs will probably never get the chance, but I'm fairly sure they'd do a much better job if they did.

I've just noticed your list of results, and they don't change any of my views. One thing is striking: the sliding support for both major parties. Why do you think that is?

Hi guys..can I ask a question?