Emails being blocked by NTL

[Ragunboneman]

I know one of the Wanadoo servers was on the spamcop blocklist the other day, check your senders IP at http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml
If it's listed you know the cause and can bring it up with them.

Someone posted a freephone number on one of the forums,
0800 183 0213 press 3 when prompted and it takes you to the normal line.
Not tried it yet, but next time...much better than paying for the call !!

[hatedbythemail]

wonder if we could coordinate a response to ntl on this? unless theres collective anger theyre just going to keep on keeping on

[nedsram]

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

wonder if we could coordinate a response to ntl on this? unless theres collective anger theyre just going to keep on keeping on

We have just been informed that an urgent email from Manchester University was bounced. The sender had to use a different email address to get through to us.

As for Spamhaus, this article might interest people:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39283356,00.htm

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------

Originally Posted by jdogsbody

ntl is not just filtering out spam to its users, but sometimes vital communications. I can certainly identify with bean999`s friend, as that is the situation I`ve been in - arrangements made by emails which have never arrived .

NTL aren't "filtering". If the sending host is on the Spamhaus (or whatever) database, they refuse to respond to the incoming message. They don't get as far as actually looking at it. The sending host returns an "NTL server could not be contacted" error to the originator, will retry for a few days, then gives up. In some cases it can be days before the originator realises that something is amiss.

---------- Post added at 18:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

but they say i need to contact people whose emails are failing to reach me, get the error message, then phone ntl back @ 10p a minute so they can escalate.

Nice one NTL. How do you know whose emails failed to reach you? But I can tell them the message - not that they don't know already. "The NTL mail server was unreachable for xxx days."

[nedsram]

Originally Posted by nedsram

We have just been informed that an urgent email from Manchester University was bounced.

I've just been sent the response the Manchester University man got from his local server (suitably edited); oddly he can now get through, so it must have been removed from the spam database:

A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to one or more of its
recipients after more than 48 hours on the queue on serenity.mcc.ac.uk.

The message identifier is: 1GPGD0-0008n9-60
The date of the message is: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:18:37 +0100
The subject of the message is: xxxxxx

The address to which the message has not yet been delivered is:

<somebody at ntlworld dot com>
Delay reason: SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
host smtpin.ntlworld.com [81.103.221.10]: 421 Message rejected

To quote the SMTP standard document:

The 421 reply (service not available, closing transmission channel) may be given to any command if the SMTP-receiver knows it must shut down.

So the server isn't just ignoring the messages; it's pretending that it has a problem and must shut down. Sneaky.

I'm told that Chester University has also been blocking email from Manchester University.

[Ragunboneman]

Quote....A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to one or more of its
recipients after more than 48 hours on the queue on serenity.mcc.ac.uk.

Yes It is Serenity that is my problem too It is on and off the blocklist every day, current listing,
Query bl.spamcop.net - 130.88.200.93
(Help) (Trace IP) (Senderbase lookup)

130.88.200.93 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)
If there are no reports of ongoing objectionable email from this system it will be delisted automatically in approximately 17 hours.

Listing History
In the past 93.0 days, it has been listed 43 times for a total of 23.8 days

Great isnt it !!

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Ragunboneman

Quote....A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to one or more of its
recipients after more than 48 hours on the queue on serenity.mcc.ac.uk.

Yes It is Serenity that is my problem too It is on and off the blocklist every day, current listing,
Query bl.spamcop.net - 130.88.200.93
(Help) (Trace IP) (Senderbase lookup)

130.88.200.93 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)
If there are no reports of ongoing objectionable email from this system it will be delisted automatically in approximately 17 hours.

Listing History
In the past 93.0 days, it has been listed 43 times for a total of 23.8 days

Great isnt it !!

Right, checked senderbase.

If the person ( or is it you, I lost the thread ) trying to contact your from within that University changes their outbound SMT server to either:

130.88.203.23 yearning.mcc.ac.uk

or

130.88.203.16 xenial.mcc.ac.uk

Then they may be able to get email to ntlworld, as neither of these servers are currently listed in bl.spamcop.net. Assuming of course that these servers can be explicitly used as smtp servers in the email client settings.

You have to remember that there is a specific reason why the servers are listed in spamcop....they are being used to send spam.

Of course, ntl does not have to use such lists, but having been on the receiving end of ntl's lack of proper mail filtering, and having to delete between 30 - 50 junk emails per day, I for one are glad they are doing this.

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Originally Posted by hatedbythemail

wonder if we could coordinate a response to ntl on this? unless theres collective anger theyre just going to keep on keeping on

Why bother? The servers are listed because of spam reports, and a listing happens when there are mutliple reports. sure, ntl COULD decide not to use those lists, then we would see the complaints creep up about the spam problem on the ntl network.

At its peak, up to 30M emails were being blocked daily from hitting the ntl network from known spam allowing networks thanks to these block lists.

I know its frustrating, but there is a collective responsibility here. Where ntl have been listed, they have worked with the listing organization to identify the rogue client or clients and take action to prevent listing again. When they demonstrate this they get de-listed. The same should be for those currently on the block lists, work with the listing network, sort out the problem, get removed from the list.

[Ragunboneman]

Somehow I don't think it is that easy, Changing the server would be one major task.
I receive mail (or not) from a mailing list which is one small part of the overall University system. If it was a small organisation perhaps....

The mail block is not due to spam, but mis directed bounces, and with so much traffic through the server it could come from anywhere within the mail system. The administrator of the mail list will not be able to source the problem as its outside his immediate area.

You are right someone needs to look at it from within the University, but where they need to look is the question.
Meanwhile no spam = no mail

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:39 ----------

OK. lets try a different approach.
I have just sent an email to, postmaster@mcc.ac.uk pointing out the University servers Serenity & Probity being on the spamcop blocklist and playing havoc with mail to Ntl users.
I have also asked if they are aware of this and is anything being done to solve the problem.....

Let's see.

[nedsram]

Originally Posted by Toto

At its peak, up to 30M emails were being blocked daily from hitting the ntl network from known spam allowing networks thanks to these block lists.

Possibly. But the point is: how many of these "up to 30M" emails were spam, and how many were genuine - possibly important - emails? And if this spam blocking is so wonderful, why do I still get on average ten spam emails per day?

Spam will not be conquered by using blunt and inappropriate instruments; it will only be blocked by implementing secure, authenticated, email protocols, so that the sender of the spam can be positively identified and prevented from sending any more spam. That is if you can determine what is spam and what is not. I've earlier commented on the increasingly sophisticated methods spammers are using to defeat spam filters. Although why they bother is another question. Some of the contrived spam emails I receive (despite NTL's precautions) are so obviously bogus that nobody in their right mind would respond to them. But sadly, some people are that gullible I guess.

[hatedbythemail]

indeed. i get a ton of day trader stuff all the time. but have missed som important mails. id rathger have my own anti-spam software and decide what i want to receive as ntl obviously cant be trusted to operate a succesful whitelist (or indeed stop tech support lying or being ignorant of their sbcl subscription)

[jackclare]

Originally Posted by nedsram

You are seeing the same symptoms, which suggests that either NTL itself is blacklisted, or a relay the email message passes through is blacklisted. Whilst it's likely that a relay is to blame (so traffic in both directions through it will be affected), it would be ironic indeed if the people blacklisting email hosts were themselves on the blacklist! I've had emails from beeb.com dumped because a Demon relay the messages passed through was on the blacklist. The Beeb's fault of course.

The reason that some occasionally get through is probably to do with the route the message takes - i.e. occasionally it isn't routed via the blacklisted relay. But as you say, it does make a complete mockery of the email system. The ten or so spam emails NTL traps and puts in my spam folder every day get through unscathed, whilst genuine emails are thrown away "because a computer somewhere on the route it took has been forwarding spam". So as well as wrecking the email system, it doesn't even stop spam. And how do you define spam in the first place? I've had perfectly genuine emails from people in my address book dumped in the spam folder by NTL before now.

For the last 2 days emails have been getting through from Freeserve after I had contacted NTL and the Freeserve client had been in touch with Orange/Wanadoo/Freeserve BUT the latest reply seems to be a load of nonsense and contradictory:-
"It does seem that alot of people are having the same problem unfortunately it isnt ntl who are stopping the emails coming through its wanadoo, orange and freeserve who have blocked their customers contacting ntl.
Below is a statement that was sent to us to advise all customers with this problem, i hope this will explain the problem alittle easier for you.


"This has been caused by the Yahoo Groups and Wanadoo / Freeserve mail servers being blacklist by serveral blacklisting companies including those used by ntl to manage the anti-abuse mail platform.

We are working with the client to open communications with Wanadoo, freeserve and Yahoo to try and alleviate this problem.

Please advise customers that this is a third party issue which cannot be directly resolved by NTL. NTL are aware of the issue and will help the other mail providers as much as possible to resolve it. "

So now you know, make of it what you will.
The main feature is that something has or is being done

[dev]

Originally Posted by Ragunboneman

OK. lets try a different approach.
I have just sent an email to, postmaster@mcc.ac.uk pointing out the University servers Serenity & Probity being on the spamcop blocklist and playing havoc with mail to Ntl users.
I have also asked if they are aware of this and is anything being done to solve the problem.....

Let's see.

tbh, i am in no way surprised the manchester uni's mail servers are on a spam list. it's not just for ntl users, i emailed a place about some accommodation only for the mail to bounce due to the spam listing. it'd be interesting to see what they (manchester uni) say about it

[Ragunboneman]

Apparently they started queuing mail last week and trying again later as a way to alleviate the problem.
I am told the email manager returned from holiday on monday last, and I dont see either of the two university servers listed in spamcop now and its been that way all week......lets hope it stays that way.

[Toto]

Originally Posted by nedsram

Possibly. But the point is: how many of these "up to 30M" emails were spam, and how many were genuine - possibly important - emails? And if this spam blocking is so wonderful, why do I still get on average ten spam emails per day?

Spam will not be conquered by using blunt and inappropriate instruments; it will only be blocked by implementing secure, authenticated, email protocols, so that the sender of the spam can be positively identified and prevented from sending any more spam. That is if you can determine what is spam and what is not. I've earlier commented on the increasingly sophisticated methods spammers are using to defeat spam filters. Although why they bother is another question. Some of the contrived spam emails I receive (despite NTL's precautions) are so obviously bogus that nobody in their right mind would respond to them. But sadly, some people are that gullible I guess.

I don't dissagree with you on this, however as there is no universal approach to a "secure authenticated protocal" system for email, perhaps with the exception of SPF then ntl is doing the best it can from a two pronged approach. Server side blocking from networks with a hightened increase in spam allowance, and a a pretty good scanning system called Brightmail.

There are spam emails getting through yes, but a search on these forums will show how bad ntl's network was before they implemented these systems.

False positives are a way of life, and no network that operates some sort of spam filtering is free from such problems.

[Tiko]

Why is it so difficult to find out from ntl exactly what e-mails they do block?
I sent this simple enquiry using the contact us form on the ntl site.

"Are any e-mails which are sent to ntlworld.com email addresses discarded
before being passed on to the user. If so what rules and or blacklists are
used."

The first response I got was a pointless list of questions (See the end of this post for what they sent.)
Some answers were already given in the info required to be able to send the contact us form and most of the rest totally irrelevant.

I replied with answers to their 9 questions, several days later I still do not have the answer to my single simple enquiry because all I received was the following reply. From this i suppose I can conclude no-one at ntl gives a damn about a potential customers queries about their service, they are ignorant of their own service, they do not (cannot?) read what is sent to them .
======
Thank you for your email.

Due to the security procedures we have in place at NTL, in compliance
with the Data Protection Act, we cannot accept any change of information
regarding customer?s personal or account details or divulge account
information via e-mail.

If you contact Customer Services on 0845 454 0000 or 150 from your NTL
line free of charge and they will be able to assist with your enquiry.

Please note that we cannot action any callbacks through this Inbox.

Regards

NTL Customer Concern
=========






List of silly questions from ntl - presumably requiring silly answers:-


Dear Customer.
Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, I do not have enough information from your e-mail to
diagnose the problems you have been experiencing or to locate your
account.

Can you please contact us again with a few more details about the
problem.

If you could please provide the answers to the following questions, I
will then be in a better position to help you:

Q1. What is your full ntlfreedom e-mail address? (e.g.
your.name@ntlworld.com)

Q2. What operating system are you using?
WINDOWS 98/ME/XP/MacOS 8-9/MAC OSX?
Please note that these are the only operating systems that we can offer any technical support for.

Q3. Full description of the problem.

Q4. What is your type of modem

Q5. What error messages or error numbers did you get, if any? (i.e. ERROR 691)

Q6. Do any of the other functions/programs on your computer operate normally?

Q7. What program are you using when the problem occurs?

Q8.If your problem is with our connection software (Rydial)?
RyDial keeps a log file of all dialler activity in the following pathway... C:\Program Files\ntldial\Rydial.log (this will launch in Notepad) please cut and paste the information it contains into your reply to us as it
will show us any failed connections and help us to diagnose your problem
Please do not attach the file as our server will strip it out for security reasons.

Q9. When did it last work normally?

If you could contact us as soon as possible, with the answers to the above questions, and any other information that may help us, we will do our best to resolve this problem for you.

Alternatively you may wish to call our technical support helpline, all our helpline numbers are listed in the footer of this e-mail.


Regards Ntl Freedom Support Team
www.ntlfreedom.com

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Tiko

Why is it so difficult to find out from ntl exactly what e-mails they do block?

Two reasons.

First, they use 2 block lists, Spamhaus and Spamcop. If a network email server appears in any one of those lists, and is NOT white listed (allowed even though it may be listed), then all connections from that email server are blocked until the server is removed from the list and ntl's servers updated.

Second, they use Brightmail content filtering, this usually does not block legitimate email, so it is unlikely that it is this system that is blocking mail you are expecting.

Therefore it is not possible to say with any accuracy what emails are being blocked, but if you know the SMTP server of the sender, and check the IP address of that server against the links below, you may get a vlue.

Spamcop here
Spamhaus here

Hope that helps.