[Now Official] More ntl speed changes

[ProfPete]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

All I'm saying is most people can accept the need for caps, but make them realistic for the money people are paying.

Where have your figures for these "acceptable" caps come from? Out of the air? That's what it appears to be.

Any caps will be based on an ISPs costs for provision of access, backhaul, and their profit margins.

That is the only realistic value of capping, the one that lets the ISP provide the service it intends. You might want to take a look at some other places, like australia for instance. Then decide again if those caps are "realistic" for people's money...

[Ignition]

High Tier: Remember these people pay A LOT compared to other countries (most of which need to use the bandwidth of the UK to get to USA) give them 100gb. It's why they're paying so much for net access. Most of the users in this category can get 2mbit DSL with unlimited bandwidth for £40 (location permitting)

Umm 'our' bandwidth is certainly not the same thing as all these other countries, it's not 'our' bandwidth, it's fibre runs that happen to go past the UK, not 'our' bandwidth.

There are a lot of reasons why net access is so expensive here, lack of Government assistance, cable not being the #1 way to watch TV, being an Island and having to use submarine fibre to get to most places to name just 3.

So, why is 3Mbit a high tier here when it's a lower tier elsewhere, why in Canada, so close to the states do operators offer 5 and 10Mbit down with a measly 30GB/month? Why there are contentions way higher than the ~25:1 that's normal here workable?

What you consider a 'fair' amount is vastly above average. IMHO no-one on a home connection should really be using 100GB without paying a massive premium to coincide with the amount of data they are using.

Pay your money, take your choice. If you dislike the packages offered take any other option there may be.

[Hans Gruber]

Originally Posted by ProfPete

That is the only realistic value of capping, the one that lets the ISP provide the service it intends. You might want to take a look at some other places, like australia for instance. Then decide again if those caps are "realistic" for people's money...

Yeah we can all use extremes, I'll use Japan and sweden as mine.

The fact is I will leave NTL if these caps are imposed at such low levels. People on here are the bandwidth police so won't care that much what I do, maybe NTL shareholders will, but I'm certainly not alone in this. I'd be happy paying £22 for unlimited 512k ADSL at Nildram.

In all honesty I'm not bothered who supplies my internet access, come the new year NTL will no longer offer the service I require. I've been with them 5 years and have been happy with the service they've provided, but it seems now is the time to move on.

[Rone]

Thats pretty well sums it up for me, if i'm going to have ridiculously low caps imposed [i have one connection shared with my lads pc] then i'm off to whoever [ie Nildram]wont penalise me.
I dont mind paying, thats not the issue as theres no proviso for those that go above, thats what i find antiquated.
Someones already countered with the "all isps will soon be capped" bit, but there will be a market, and someones going to capitalise, and i see AOL are still bragging about no download quotas.

[ProfPete]

For starters, the old services are staying, for existing customers.

Nildram being IPStream won't want you doing that sort of rate, and will soon find a fair-use clause to get rid of you or charge you, when BT force them into capacity-based charging.

And the caps are not low, they're pretty damn good actually. Japan and sweden have a totally different system of backhaul.

Face it, 50 or 100gig/month is not domestic use in the current climate. You're either using it for business purposes, or illegal uses. And don't tell me you can download 100gig/month of linux ISOs, that's b0110cks, and you know it.

[daxx]

3 words to all detracors

WAIT AND SEE

1. What is written into the 'new' T&C

2. What the 'Bandwidth Police' do if you go over the official limits

3. What 'other' providers do with regard to usage allowances

All this kerfuffle is just a repeat of what happened when the 1G/3 in 14 limit was introduced a couple of years ago and the usual 'I want it without limits or I'm off' brigade are out in force. (nice to see some of the 'old' I'm off brigade are still with NTL, no provider come up to your exacting standards then?)

[Hans Gruber]

Originally Posted by ProfPete

For starters, the old services are staying, for existing customers.

Nildram being IPStream won't want you doing that sort of rate, and will soon find a fair-use clause to get rid of you or charge you, when BT force them into capacity-based charging.

And the caps are not low, they're pretty damn good actually. Japan and sweden have a totally different system of backhaul.

Face it, 50 or 100gig/month is not domestic use in the current climate. You're either using it for business purposes, or illegal uses. And don't tell me you can download 100gig/month of linux ISOs, that's b0110cks, and you know it.

I'm not going to tell you anything about what my pc is used for. Quite frankly it's none of your business. I do not download excessively (IN MY OPINION), but 30gb is not enough for my needs. Furthermore there has been no confirmation that the old tiers will continue, and even if they do whether they will include the new caps.

Other ISPs provide a service that suits me, I have no brand loyalty to NTL, I owe them nothing to stay with them. It is no skin off my nose if I leave them, and I'm sure nobody on here cares if I stay or go. The service is changing and it does not suit my needs. There really is no arguement about how my usage habits should change as they will not, just because an ISP decides we should stop using the internet for things that have become daily life.

NTL can do what they like with their services, but people will leave. Maybe the future is back to 56k, maybe my fridge will never be connected to the internet incase it orders 1 too many cans of coke and sends me over my usage limit, but I will cross those hurdles when there is no other option. People in a modern world rely on the internet, if ISPs can't keep up people will move over to companies that can. There are plenty of ISPs that can offer a service people are happy with.

[madcap]

Originally Posted by ProfPete

Face it, 50 or 100gig/month is not domestic use in the current climate. You're either using it for business purposes, or illegal uses. And don't tell me you can download 100gig/month of linux ISOs, that's b0110cks, and you know it.

Dont forget that NTL have used illegal uses in their promotional material in the past to intice people to use their service, anyone remeber that advert which stated that you could get spiderman the movie before it was released on video which someone posted to these forums.

[DVS]

Originally Posted by daxx

errr so what have you been doing since one Friday afternoon a couple of years when the 'amended T&C' came into effect? (the original CAP, 1G over 3 consecutive in 14days).

I've been ignoring it completely! I did not sign up to a restricted service and I will not adhere to such. If my usage was excessive enough to be causing local problems then I would fully expect a letter from NTL. That hasn't occured but that may be in part because I do all I can to limit the impact of my usage on other users. DL's take place over night not during peak periods. I use flashget for all HTTP and FTP DL's and have it scheduled such that any files I select during the course of a day are queued and DL'd to a schedule. Yes I probably am one of the 5% of heavy users that is causing so much grief and strife for other NTL customers (or so NTL would like people to beleive) but how DLing after midnight can cause so much strife is beyond me.

Originally Posted by daxx

The writing is on the wall and has been for the past few years, just another 'thing' you'll have learn to live with when it comes to t'internet, along with the raft of virii, scams and other associated crap that the majority of users now take daily into the stride of their 'online' experience.

Which actually raises a number of interesting points about the caps. Whose going to be hit by usage charges when they get spammed to death, mail bombed or the latest Windows vunerability lands dozens of customers machines open to spammers relaying via them. Should bring some very interesting threads to these forums in the future, eg my broadband bill is X hundred pound but I haven't used my machine sort of threads In fact it could prove a very cost effective way of causing people that you dislike serious grief to the wallet. Sign em up to a few dozen porn mailing lists. Within days their email address would be known to half the porn industry

[ian@huth]

Let's get a few things clear:

We live in the UK not Sweden or Japan.

Nobody is forcing anyone to remain a NTL customer.

The majority of members on here think that the new deal from NTL is a fantastic deal.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the way that broadband charging is moving in the UK and it isn't to an unlimited "all you can eat" system.

Yes, there are companies fighting for market share that are offering unlimited use at the moment, but how long will this last? If all the bandwidth hoggers move to these then it won't be long before they are forced to take action and enforce restrictions. The only alternative for them is to let unlimited downloads slow their network to a crawl.

Technology will advance and customers will require more bandwidth in the future but the same technological advances will allow ISPs to provide this extra bandwidth.

All the moaning and complaining in the world will not alter the arithmetic which dictates how much ISPs have to charge to make a profit and what speed and bandwidth allowance they can provide for that charge.

If you think that some ADSL ISPs offer a faster service and / or unlimited bandwidth allowance and will continue to do so in the future then back up your convictions, give them your custom and buy as many shares in the company as you can. You must be on a winner according to your logic.

Since several people have mentioned it, I have added the vote option for staying as you are.

[DVS]

Originally Posted by daxx

1. What is written into the 'new' T&C

2. What the 'Bandwidth Police' do if you go over the official limits

3. What 'other' providers do with regard to usage allowances

All this kerfuffle is just a repeat of what happened when the 1G/3 in 14 limit was introduced a couple of years ago and the usual 'I want it without limits or I'm off' brigade are out in force. (nice to see some of the 'old' I'm off brigade are still with NTL, no provider come up to your exacting standards then?)

I intend to wait and see. In fact one of my earlier posts was aimed at trying to gain additional info regarding what the Bandwidth Police will have in their arsenal. The current details from NTL are sketchy at best regarding the cap and how it's going to be implemented but I beleive this is a planned move on NTL's part. They don't want to emphasize the restricted nature of their new offerings. Instead they want to get some mileage out of being the fastest mainstream operator before they confirm their plans for the cap. I cannot blame them for this as it's sound marketing but it does lead to speculative threads such as this one because users aren't presented with all the facts.

As to still being with NTL. I have so far had no contact from them regarding my usage. If and when I do get a cease and desist letter thats when I'll initiate a move to an alternate ISP. I have played a wait and see policy so far and will continue to do so until NTL make it such that I cannot use my connection in the manner that I choose (and I won't get drawn on wether what I choose is right or wrong as everyone's view on that differs).

[DVS]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

We live in the UK not Sweden or Japan.

True

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Nobody is forcing anyone to remain a NTL customer.

Again true.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

The majority of members on here think that the new deal from NTL is a fantastic deal.

As has already been said "You cannot please all of the people all of the time"

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the way that broadband charging is moving in the UK and it isn't to an unlimited "all you can eat" system.

But does that not worry people? I've used the net for years and have payed serious sums for my usage. I don't want to return to that. Do you?

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Technology will advance and customers will require more bandwidth in the future but the same technological advances will allow ISPs to provide this extra bandwidth.

But will they? or will they simply bolster their profits?

Originally Posted by ianathuth

All the moaning and complaining in the world will not alter the arithmetic which dictates how much ISPs have to charge to make a profit and what speed and bandwidth allowance they can provide for that charge.

But broadband is not making a loss know so these changes aren't to return to a profitable operation but simply suck more profit out of an already profitable solution.

[DVS]

Originally Posted by Paul M

Since several people have mentioned it, I have added the vote option for staying as you are.

Thanks. My vote has been cast

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by DVS

I've been ignoring it completely! I did not sign up to a restricted service and I will not adhere to such. If my usage was excessive enough to be causing local problems then I would fully expect a letter from NTL. That hasn't occured but that may be in part because I do all I can to limit the impact of my usage on other users.

As you have stated, you have continually gone about your current 1 gig a day cap and NTL have NOT written to you. Has it occured that maybe they are using the current cap purely as a fixed figure above which they can say "that's excessive downloading". What I mean is that when I joined BB (back in around 2000), the AUP did say something about not downloading excessive amounts, but did not specify what "excessive" was.

Now, as far as I can tell, NTL have been using the cap this way, as a limit above which they can advise people who are causing problems in their local areas to reduce their downloading.

Assuming NTL have been doing this, who is to say they won't do the same in future? You seem to assume NTL will suddenly cut off or reprimand any customer who goes over the limit.

If they do, fine, complain. Until NTL do that (and I don't think they will), there is nothing to complain about.

Which actually raises a number of interesting points about the caps. Whose going to be hit by usage charges when they get spammed to death, mail bombed or the latest Windows vunerability lands dozens of customers machines open to spammers relaying via them. Should bring some very interesting threads to these forums in the future, eg my broadband bill is X hundred pound but I haven't used my machine sort of threads In fact it could prove a very cost effective way of causing people that you dislike serious grief to the wallet. Sign em up to a few dozen porn mailing lists. Within days their email address would be known to half the porn industry

Bear in mind that the average spam seems to be around the 50-100K (and that's being generous) mark, exactly how much spam is someone going to need to get to use up even 5 Gig a month?