[Now Official] More ntl speed changes

[altis]

As I understand it the old tiers are not disappearing, there are three new ones. In summary we have:

With no cap or 1GB per day soft cap or beanie:
£17.99 per month = 300kbps down; 64kbps up; ~30GB per month usage allowance
£24.99 per month = 750kbps down; 128kbps up; ~30GB per month usage allowance
£37.99 per month = 1.5Mbps down; 256kbps up; ~30GB per month usage allowance

With a hard monthly cap:
£17.99 per month = 1Mbps down; ? mbps up; 5GB per month usage allowance
£24.99 per month = 2Mbps down; ? mbps up; 30GB per month usage allowance
£37.99 per month = 3Mbps down; 256kbps up; 40GB per month usage allowance

Existing customers wishing to change from the 'slow' to the 'fast' group will have to pay a £25 upgrade charge. Any upgrading customers who access broadband through a Pace STB will get theirs swapped for a Samsung or get switched to SACM plus STB.

That is the situation as I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Erus]

I was reading the info about the upgrade to speeds and was happy to see that i could get 2mb for what i am paying now.
But what worries me is the proposed caps they are looking to put on, now i run 2 pcs on a router and both are used for heavy internet gaming, one is sometimes left running for large periods of the day running a game (bot tasking) and the other general when i am playing.
Ontop of this i tend to download a lot of large update files regularly and also am currently in web design so upload to ftp's a-lot and download various things.

According to a calculation i will use my bandwith cap in 30hours just from playing the game alone, are these caps final? Can i remain on my 700k without a bandwith limit? am i gonna be gettin charged more for using to much bw?

(and no i ain't cutting down the gaming since i pay per month for it and enjoy it a-lot cept on fridays when the town and ladies is a callin lol)

[PC_Arcade]

I think the whole capped usage thing is ultimately destructive for ISP's, customers vote with their wallets and it will only take BT's customers being charged silly amounts for a couple of linux distros or NTL's hard enforcement of caps and people will start looking for cap free providers. The same thing happened with dial-up with people moving to free usage as soon as it became available.

Companies (like NTL and BT) that don't listen to what their customers want will ultimately lose those customers to companies (like BulldogDSL and AOL) who do.

I've been happy in the main with NTL for ~3 years now and have no intention of changing, but the SECOND they start to enforce the cap, I'm off to an ISP that has no cap

[badnbusy]

I agree that there should be an option (£5-10 on top of product price) that allows uncapped. Then ntl win both ways.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by ray_uk

I might be willing to pay about 60 to 70 a month for a 2 or 3 mb unlimited download.

Methinks you are enjoying the newsgroups, Torrents, DC networks whatever far too much. If you can afford 70 quid a month on an internet connection buy the blinking stuff you're downloading!

That sort of package would have an uptake of next to nothing, the only people who are likely to take it are those downloading then selling stuff for the most part (not that I'm implying you do).

Just FYI 70 quid a month still won't cover your costs if you are using your connection to its' fullest capacity, which I'm thinking you do or fairly close to it, on 3Mbit you can download 900GB in a month. When you factor in bandwidth prices to ntl, which although lower than most due to scale will still be there, along with fixed costs of their own network capacity, the local cable networks capacity.

To be honest I seriously doubt 70 quid covers the external bandwidth, let alone the far more expensive internal bandwidth.

On the other hand if there's a 'top up' facility released at some point with a charge per GB once you go past your limit, and your usage isn't that insane you may find a reasonable compromise and price point. Unfortunately there are very few ISPs that cater to the all you can eat market particularly. Bulldog tried it and managed to thoroughly overload their core an local networks. Plusnet are trying it but are creaking a bit under the load, while performance to MOST users isn't being harmed yet some are getting sub-standard performance at times.

As I've probably said a ton of times before, Japanese and Swedish for example may have uncapped services, however they also have congested networks. Japanese on 100Mbit rarely see more than 2Mbit of throughput once they are outside their own country. Swedes it's a similar issue unless the traffic is going to certain destinations their ISP is directly connected to. Also at some points in their core networks problems may arise..

The other thing to bear in mind is that most of these had Government assistance in some way. In the case of Sweden tax breaks for the people doing the infrastructure and in the case of Japan a very competition friendly Government that allowed the local equivalent of BT, NTT to install fibre wherever they felt the need on condition they allowed anyone who paid to use it, which NTT did as they are a forward looking company happy to make investment now and see the returns over a longer period. UK people complain like crazy if they aren't getting full throughput on their connection, hate packet loss, hi pings. Without contending the networks madly speeds like that on an unlimited basis just aren't an option. Oh and you forgot to mention that a number of those unlimited ultra quick providers traffic shape (control bandwidth usage) and block certain ports and applications.

Check out the situation in the UK, LLU still in its' infancy, BT's fastest wholesale product is 2Mbit/256k and has been since 2000 public release and 1996 in trials.

What's the point in ntl busting their backs and throwing loads of money on a solution to take on everyone? These deals are better than anything offered by the biggest 3 ADSL players (BT Retail, Tiscali, Wanadoo) and from the point of view of raw connection speed the fastest home connections in the UK outside of 35 Central London Bulldog enabled exchanges.

You can't please everyone all the time, but ntl are doing good business and pleasing the vast, vast majority with this deal. Not much more you could ask really.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

I think the whole capped usage thing is ultimately destructive for ISP's, customers vote with their wallets and it will only take BT's customers being charged silly amounts for a couple of linux distros or NTL's hard enforcement of caps and people will start looking for cap free providers. The same thing happened with dial-up with people moving to free usage as soon as it became available.

Companies (like NTL and BT) that don't listen to what their customers want will ultimately lose those customers to companies (like BulldogDSL and AOL) who do.

I've been happy in the main with NTL for ~3 years now and have no intention of changing, but the SECOND they start to enforce the cap, I'm off to an ISP that has no cap

I've said this before, And I'll say it again, Uncapped ISP's are a dying breed, really, they are, because the more people who go to them because of the uncapped service, the less profit they will make.

Bandwidth is expensive, very expensive, as more and more ISPs add caps, the ones who dont, will be hit harder and harder by customers who abuse the unlimited services, which over time will force them to increase their price, or add caps, either way, anyone who downloads more than 40GB a month, costs the ISP more than they get back from them.

If the only reason to change ISP is a cap, and not quality of service, or reliability, then your reasoning is flawed.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by Stop It

If the only reason to change ISP is a cap, and not quality of service, or reliability, then your reasoning is flawed.

End of the day it's his reasoning and his decision, pay your money take your choice.
I will say though that the unlimited BulldogDSL service (which my Hi-Velo service WAS backhauled through) was for 2 months nearly utterly atrocious. On a 2Mbit business line I was seeing 128k ISDN like download speeds, first hop pings of nearly 100ms and 10% or more packet loss. This was during peak times. In the middle of the night I could get about equivalent speeds to a 512k ADSL line, and the packet loss was a mere 5% or so, pings in the 40s and 50s first hop.
However if this is the kind of service you don't mind in return for unlimited downloads...

[PC_Arcade]

I've been looking at ADSL for a while now, enforcement of the cap would be the final push I need to move to it, my reasoning is sound.

I currently spend ~100pcm with NTL for all three services although the only one I really care about is BB, the phone would be replaced by my mobile (the only reason I have the phone is that it's free with CTV), CTV would be replaced with freeview (yeah I know, FAR less channels, but at least interactive works and I wouldn't have to reset my box EVERY NIGHT) and cable BB by Bulldog DSL or one of the other unmetered comapnies

It would all be cheaper as a package, BUT as I've stated before I've been pretty happy with NTL, but as BB is pretty much the only reason I'm staying with them and I don't agree with capping, I would be forced to move.

Bulldog DID have problems, but they seem to be pretty good now, however I'm only using them as an example, any ISP with no cap will do

[zovat]

Right....

firstly: to NTL - this is great news, and puts NTL back at the top of the BB table.

Secondly - "usage allowance" : IT HAS NOT CHANGED ON THE 2M or 3M (in fact the 3M will be higher).
Yes, the 1M has a low "CAP", but then it is aimed at people who mainly surf, that does not involve huge downloads. - if you want a higher "cap" then get a better service !!

thirdly : <rant time - sorry> I have never read so much rubbish about how this is a bad thing, and how NTL are trying to con us etc...

NTL are giving you higher speeds - something that we have been asking for for ages.
They are not charging you any more per month for this.
Ok, they say there will be a £25 admin fee - I will happily pay this - how much will they charge new users fo installation ?
If you do not want to move to the new speeds (although I personally cannot see any reason for this ) then you do not have to.

I have been pretty anti-NTL in most of my time on this forum (under it's many names ) but this is something that NTL have got right, and I think that people need to recognise that, rather than focus on the negatives ....
</rant - feel better for that >

We had a "CAP" discussion when it was first announced - and I have yet to know anyone who has been disconnected for breaking this.
If you really need to download 40+Gb per month, then get a business service, because that is the only reason I can see for downloading that amount of data every month.

As ever - these are my opinions - you may not agree - but they will remain my opinions.

[sherer]

yes this looks like good news. The only problem I can see is that NTL are still in debt at the moment. I don't think my 4000 STB could take 1 MB or 2 MB broadband so that would need to be upgraded. I'm sure alot of users are also in the same situation. Maybe that is what part of the admin fee is being used for.

Looks like good news and I await this happening. What with the announcement that they are also working on a PVR type box and VOD as well things are starting to move.

Loads of people on here are always saying cable has so many advantages over sat with the network and everything and it looks like NTL are starting to realise that. If we can get a stable STB and decent broadband service i'll stick with them.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by ray_uk

USAGE ALLOWANCE , well I wasnt expecting something for nothing, But then again lets hope that this go's the same way as which telephone deregulation has by brining in ever decreasing prices due to competition, thats what's really needed for broadband, competition.

Remember back when NTL 1st introduced the 1mb service at £49.99 sure that sounded good at the time but when you consider the sort of speeds available elsewhere at the time for example in Japan, North America and the Scandanavian and Benelux area's 10mb, 100mb or dedicated fibre optic home use connections for around the $30.00 a month. Yeah we were getting a real good deal .

Well in retrospect "to me it seems" that they'll try to make anything fly or get away with what ever they can, just enough, Dont get me wrong its not that im complaining or even saying that its bad, on the contrary id be more then willing to pay for what I use since its the fair thing but regaurdless were still not getting a fair deal. Not when you look around and see whats available elsewhere.

P.S. this isnt a attack on anybody, Just my Opinion.

It is quite easy to sit at home using Google and find examples of high bandwidth connections and low prices across the globe but do you see the full picture?

Many of the prices you see are introductory prices, but what will they be after the offers end? Many of the high speeds are only available in certain urban areas and you get nothing like them once you are outside of them. Bulldog in central London and Dolphin Squares 10Mb with NTL are examples.

What is the service like for users of these very cheap, very high bandwidth connections? Do they actually give you the full whack all the time? Do those on 10Mb connections actually get to use this speed or are they just toddling along at a fraction of it as there is nowhere to connect that enables them to use it to the max? Do they have congestion? Do they have caps?

In the UK we have broadband delivered mainly by telephone line or cable. Most of the infrastructure used is years old and cannot supply the higher speeds craved by some. Even cable which is not that old is running in some areas on infrastructure that is way out of date. When the first cable companies in the UK began laying cable they were not considering TV with hundreds of channels and internet connections with massive bandwidth. The systems they put in were quickly running at the limit of their capabilities and couldn't easily or cheaply be upgraded. Parts of London, parts of Leicester and other places are prime examples of this.

In some countries some areas are using cable carried overground on poles which is cheaper and more easily upgraded. Some areas have cable which was installed in a manner that is more easily upgraded than ours here is. Some areas overseas have had massive government assistance in building the network. What we have in the UK is not easily changed and is costly to change. Who is going to pay for this change? The tooth fairy isn't going to pay for it so it must be the user that pays, but are you, the users, prepared to pay? Could you afford to pay?

It is very easy to look at what is available elsewhere and what it costs, but the stark reality is that you live here in the UK.

Originally Posted by zovat

...If you do not want to move to the new speeds (although I personally cannot see any reason for this ) then you do not have to. ...

Do you know this for certain?

I can't see ntl having 6 tiers of service. It would be much "cleaner" to have just 1, 2 & 3MB service options.

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

Bulldog DID have problems, but they seem to be pretty good now, however I'm only using them as an example, any ISP with no cap will do

So do you intend to move from isp to isp as they cap there usage, And dont forget that they might charge you a admin fee to change each time. I am willing to bet that within 3 years 98% of isp's will have a cap. As each isp cap's the warez downloaders will move to the next uncapped isp then when they finally make them all cap "those that dont might have big problems paying for all the bandwidth and go to the wall, When have we seen that before" So where will they all get there software and bad cams to sell on a saturday morning at the local computer fair.

Please note I am not saying anyone here does that but we all know someone who does it .

What i would like is a fast connection that i can use when i need it and not be ruined by billy downloader who happens to be on the same connection as me. Hopefully this is what NTL are going to give me

[ian@huth]

Looking at the poll at the moment with 113 members having voted NTL stand to lose £128 per month from them (give or take a few coppers) if they all do as they say.

Originally Posted by Bill C

Please note I am not saying anyone here does that but we all know someone who does it .

On the contrary, the only reason I know any warez monkeys is by being a member of this forum ...

Whether their rampant p2p-ing is ultimately for their own consumption or for sale down Paddy's Market / The Barras / <Insert local outlet of dodgy warez here> I don't know.