Should NTL provide free NIC?

[GazzaB]

I think it's a nice idea but in practice it wouldn't work and would probably give ntl more grief than ever! Fitting ethernet on newer machines is normally really easy but on some older boards I have known ethernet cards not work in specific slots etc etc Customers with no computer experience could do all sorts of damage and then blame ntl as they often do now for their usb issues!

I speak from experience!
Gazza

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Right then <drops visor>

Ok, here goes ....

/throws molotov cocktail



This is a brilliant idea on the face of it. It's sad that many PCs don't have Ethernet already, but I suppose this is because Ethernet has been seen as a networking technology of use only to businesses until very recently, with the growth of Broadband. Price competition has long been fierce in the PC market so no manufacturer would want to install hardware they thought the customer wouldn't miss anyway.

You have to remember that the regular posters on here are not in any way representative of the average computer user. It's all very well saying that a 10 year old could easily install a NIC if NTL sent out a free one (I installed a disk drive interface in my BBC when I was 12 or 13!) but not every household has a handy 10-year-old. It would be a recipe for litigation, as someone, somewhere, would be guaranteed to fry the insides of their PC (or themselves) and then claim it was NTL's fault.

[altis]

...and besides, don't you still invalidate the warranty on some PCs by opening them?

[MatTman]

only package PC's have a warranty to void in this situation, If the PC is homebuilt (or my l33t rig for example) I'd install it myself rather than let some NTL tech feck it up, No warranty to Void apart from he individual Part life expectancy dealies..

[greencreeper]

Not sure if this is correct but I've always likened USB to a software modem - all the processing is done by the CPU and not by the modem, which is basically just a PCB with a hole to plug the cable into. This introduces variances in performance that are dependant on a huge number of factors, including the CPU, motherboard, BIOS and software installed.

When I suggested the idea I had in mind that it would be entirely optional. There's no way I would expect (or allow ) an engineer to install the card - that would mean NTL staff interfering with a user's PC, which opens up all sorts of liability issues. I hear what people are saying about not having the skill or a person with the skill, but I honestly think most people these days have either the skill or access to the skill. They could always try PC World

Like I said, some of the commoner questions on this forum relate to switching from USB to Ethernet, which might indicate that once a user is made aware of Ethernet and hears, either via word of mouth or from the Internet, that it's better than USB, they may want to make the switch and see for themselves.

It would be useful to conduct a survey to see if USB really is PnP, or whether, as many seem to experience, Ethernet is more problem free.

[greencreeper]

Originally Posted by altis

...and besides, don't you still invalidate the warranty on some PCs by opening them?

Good point. I think it's commercial though - the PC manufacturer wants you to buy "authorised" (read "pricey") components. Years ago I had a AST 486 PC and it was fine for me to install more memory, just so long as I bought it from AST, which I did.

It would be an issue only in new PCs still within their warranty, and it seems that many now come with Ethernet capabilities either as standard or as a user choice - modem or Ethernet.

[MatTman]

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Not sure if this is correct but I've always likened USB to a software modem - all the processing is done by the CPU and not by the modem, which is basically just a PCB with a hole to plug the cable into. This introduces variances in performance that are dependant on a huge number of factors, including the CPU, motherboard, BIOS and software installed.

.

basicly what i said a few posts back, you are indeed correct about the CPU hardware factors being the Decider in how the USb modem performs, AFIAK the USB modem does have the Encode/decode hardware inside but has no internal CPU unlike its Ethernet big brother.
the Overhead for USB devices like his can be quite big with lower end systems, gaming enthusiasts would fare better to go with Ethernet for Max online performance, which basicly is the Only application in which Ethernet will outperform USB given its CPU heavy nature.

[greencreeper]

Originally Posted by MatTman

basicly what i said a few posts back, you are indeed correct about the CPU hardware factors being the Decider in how the USb modem performs, AFIAK the USB modem does have the Encode/decode hardware inside but has no internal CPU unlike its Ethernet big brother.
the Overhead for USB devices like his can be quite big with lower end systems, gaming enthusiasts would fare better to go with Ethernet for Max online performance, which basicly is the Only application in which Ethernet will outperform USB given its CPU heavy nature.

I read your post - I was just providing my analogy

It strikes me that Ethernet will always out-perform USB because the former was designed for the job it does whereas the latter is generic - it supports all manner of devices. Like I said, there are many issues that will impact on the perfomance of USB. I would guess that running the SACM through a USB hub would cause (performance) problems in some circumstances.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

So what is actually wrong with a USB connection?I have one and I've never had any problems with it.

However if I had to go ferreting inside my PC I suspect I'd soon have a whole heap of problems.

Incog.

Well we'll soon have you in that case installing a graphics card. The inside of PCs are like lego these days (well more like sticklebricks actually), just find a slot and push the card in.

This whole point of not needing a CD is a bit moot, you may well need a CD to install the NIC driver instead of the USB driver, but Windows may well accept it and install a generic driver.

I'm a bit confused why you are using usb. Your specs listed on the graphics thread

Motherboard Physical Info:
CPU Sockets/Slots 1
Expansion Slots 2 PCI, 1 AGP, 1 AMR
RAM Slots 2 DIMM
Integrated Devices Audio, Video, LAN
Form Factor Micro ATX
Motherboard Chipset SiS730S

Indicate integrated LAN, so you should have a LAN socket on the back of your PC. If you are happy it is back up and running now you have upgraded the OS, and this integrated LAN was made availible on the back of the Machine you might want to consider switching to it.

Originally Posted by MatTman

only package PC's have a warranty to void in this situation, If the PC is homebuilt (or my l33t rig for example) I'd install it myself rather than let some NTL tech feck it up, No warranty to Void apart from he individual Part life expectancy dealies..

And the average NTL customer (or any other ISP customer) will be using a package PC from Dell, HP, Compaq, Avent, Evesham. The selfbuild market is small and shrinking, I was going to selfbuild until I realised my local computer shop could do the job for £25 more than me and provide it working, rather than go through a Richard M style fault finding for a week.

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Not sure if this is correct but I've always likened USB to a software modem - all the processing is done by the CPU and not by the modem, which is basically just a PCB with a hole to plug the cable into. This introduces variances in performance that are dependant on a huge number of factors, including the CPU, motherboard, BIOS and software installed.

Likened, thats pretty much bang on the mark, which being as you generally find the USB and no NIC on older machines makes the who soft processing of IP packets on the processor even more noticable than say on an AMD2400 where their overhead would be less noticable.

Originally Posted by greencreeper

When I suggested the idea I had in mind that it would be entirely optional. There's no way I would expect (or allow ) an engineer to install the card - that would mean NTL staff interfering with a user's PC, which opens up all sorts of liability issues. I hear what people are saying about not having the skill or a person with the skill, but I honestly think most people these days have either the skill or access to the skill. They could always try PC World

Like I said, some of the commoner questions on this forum relate to switching from USB to Ethernet, which might indicate that once a user is made aware of Ethernet and hears, either via word of mouth or from the Internet, that it's better than USB, they may want to make the switch and see for themselves.

It would be useful to conduct a survey to see if USB really is PnP, or whether, as many seem to experience, Ethernet is more problem free.

NTL USB is not so PnP as you need the install disk, the device driver is not on the PC, unlike say my camera, scanner etc all which find XP device drivers and need no install CD.
Most people find opening up electronic devices daunting, you would probably not think of advising people to crack open their STBs, VCRs, DVDs, TVs, but a PC is somehow different.
IMHO It is a good idea that NTL should offer NIC cards, many people do know someone who will install it, or PC world, or on reading a well put together set of instructions will find it less daunting than they thought and it may well cause less problems, but I found in generall USB did not cause me any problems, I moved off it principaly because I bought a NIC as it was cheaper than a USB hub and I needed more USB ports. It also meant that the PC could be networked through a router. For web surfing (at this point it was not much cop for games), my Celeron 333 did not noticable suffer performance wise from creating the IP packet to send to the USB port.

[MatTman]

i wouldnt say the Selfbuilt PC is a Shrinkging market, For overclockers and gameing enthusiasts its the best option and a very Popular one at that.. although Companies like DELL will allow you to Cusomize a PC for Home delivery you need to Get one of there Techs out everytime to Install some hardware for you which is Stupid really.

Each component has a Manufacturers gaurantee so Building your Own PC gives you MORE right to Replace any parts that are damaged than you'd be able to with a Pre-built package PC (which have a 1 piece warranty, usually open case voids it), Dell would Simply tell you that you voided the warranty for opening the case and wont repair it under warranty, whereas i could send back Individual components with recipts/box's to the manufacturers and get replacements (if i built my own PC).

my £0.2p


(good i dear for a POLL, who has a Homebuilt PC)

[Graham M]

Thing is tho when you buy package PCs you dont know what youre getting in them, mostly rubbish components of the cheapest kind, whereas when you build your own (or get someone else to do it, as my friends do to me) You can pick and choose what components you want down to the last stick of RAM so you get more choice and a possibly longer lasting/higher quality system.

Sorry for the off topic btw

[SMHarman]

Staying OT, if polled I would say my machine is selfbuild, I specced every last component, how I wanted the SATA R0 partitioned etc... The difference is I let someone else put it together. I know whats in the case and have a collection of boxes, warrantys, install CDs that those products were supplied with. However most people will buy a package.

[Florence]

This sin't a new idea infact when I had BB fitted by NTL when it was first available in Manchester the letter asked if we wanted the engineer to bring an ethernet card with him but we had to fit it. I didn't orfer the ethernet card as I had just taken delivery of a new pc and didn't want to void its warrenty so went the USB route. The price for the ethernet at teh time was rather dear as I had seen them in the shops cheaper except for staples who seemed to match NTLs quote.

So all those years ago NTL gave you the choice of connecting by USB or purchasing an ethernet card off them.

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by Kits

This sin't a new idea infact when I had BB fitted by NTL when it was first available in Manchester the letter asked if we wanted the engineer to bring an ethernet card with him but we had to fit it. I didn't orfer the ethernet card as I had just taken delivery of a new pc and didn't want to void its warrenty so went the USB route. The price for the ethernet at teh time was rather dear as I had seen them in the shops cheaper except for staples who seemed to match NTLs quote.

So all those years ago NTL gave you the choice of connecting by USB or purchasing an ethernet card off them.

They certainly did, I got that offer too but since I built the PC it was linking to and I was the person who wanted the BB connection I had already purchased the necessary hardware and just needed the STB enabled. Just means that I never got to play with the USB connection on my set up but I have had to sort a few out for friends etc

[td444]

An ethernet card are very simple to fit and only cost £5-6 inc VAT. On the other hand, new PC's come with Ethernet as standard, so given a couple of years this may not become an issue.